COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

[A346Dude]

The “I have nothing to hide” group has done more harm to society than the actual criminals and wrongdoers. And it’s only getting worse.

[C-GKNT]

I really don't see the big deal here. If you don't have anything to hide, what's the problem? And yes, I have had background checks done. And YES, I have had to go for secondary screening, due to the fact I apparently share the same birthdate as one of those scum.

I was told by the clerk at the RCMP that someone on the registry may have a SIMILAR birth date as mine and that is why I need to be fingerprinted. Does not even need to be the same date, just similar. However, I don't know if this is true. I believe he was mistaken.

It is my understanding that there are 12,000+ names on the registry. If they all had unique birthdates (of course they don't but if...) that would be every single date over a 32 year period. When I discussed this with someone at COPA he felt that 30% of people were requiring secondary screening. That seems VERY low to me. I can't see less than 50% (probably a lot more) of males requiring secondary checks.

My issue at this stage is no longer with COPA it is with the RCMP. COPA has decided on vulnerable sector checks(VSC)...OK. The RCMP has designed the VSC in a way that requires finger printing for a LARGE number of people to pass their checks.

I am not a conspiracy type of guy and I don't wear a tin foil hat but I am simply uncomfortable with giving the RCMP biometric data for something like this. Yes they claim the data will destroyed after the checks but also that the fingerprint data has to go to Ottawa for 2 weeks for verification.

Should I trust that there is no record of my fingerprints after a VSC as promised based on the ethics of the RCMP...probably.
Should I trust that there is no record of my fingerprints after a VSC as promised based on the technological competence of the RCMP...nope.

Theoretical question (a bit of a stretch but not that much), if asked would you give a DNA sample for a VSC?

As an individual requiring a VSC, I have little standing with the RCMP to complain about the process. COPA doesn't have much standing either but much more than I have. I have suggested that COPA formally petition the RCMP for a method to pass a VSC WITHOUT resorting to fingerprinting. As COPA members, more of us should make this request. I think other volunteer organization should do the same.

Glenn

[C-GGGQ]

Just playing devil's advocate here. I assume you probably (as someone in aviation) have a RAIC? Fingerprints taken (heck retina scan at the airport's I had). Nexus card? Fingerprinted. At this point there isn't a single agency that doesn't have my (and likely many of us) fingerprints on file, in two countries! (at least) So for the VSC I don't see getting fingerprinted being a big deal.

[C-GKNT]

Just playing devil's advocate here. I assume you probably (as someone in aviation) have a RAIC? Fingerprints taken (heck retina scan at the airport's I had). Nexus card? Fingerprinted. At this point there isn't a single agency that doesn't have my (and likely many of us) fingerprints on file, in two countries! (at least) So for the VSC I don't see getting fingerprinted being a big deal.

C-GGGQ,

Fair comment but this is for a volunteer activity. Several other people I have discussed this with (not C4K, but other volunteer activities) who required fingerprinting didn't go back to complete their VSC and just decided to not volunteer.

C4K is too close to my heart to do that and at some point I will likely just go and get fingerprinted for my VSC. However, I still believe requiring bio-metric data for this is an overreach and push-back is warranted.

Glenn

[5x5]

Reasons for the checks, are to protect the kids! Simple as that.

I'll ask again - protect them from what? Has there ever been a case of child molestation at any CFK or Young Eagles volunteer flight program? You can't say your protecting anybody if the event you're concerned about has never happened. And if you claim that you're doing it to prevent a "what if" from happening, you're paranoid. And in my opinion paranoia is never a good reason to do anything.

And if the spectre of the possibility of ramifications should such an occurrence happen is used to justify it, then I'm with . and agree today's society makes me say "Sorry, not worth it."

[C-GGGQ]

Just playing devil's advocate here. I assume you probably (as someone in aviation) have a RAIC? Fingerprints taken (heck retina scan at the airport's I had). Nexus card? Fingerprinted. At this point there isn't a single agency that doesn't have my (and likely many of us) fingerprints on file, in two countries! (at least) So for the VSC I don't see getting fingerprinted being a big deal.

C-GGGQ,

Fair comment but this is for a volunteer activity. Several other people I have discussed this with (not C4K, but other volunteer activities) who required fingerprinting didn't go back to complete their VSC and just decided to not volunteer.

C4K is too close to my heart to do that and at some point I will likely just go and get fingerprinted for my VSC. However, I still believe requiring bio-metric data for this is an overreach and push-back is warranted.

Glenn

I understand completely, and agree this is overkill for a volunteer event especially if it's just the pilots and not everyone who is required to do it. Just saying that the whole "I don't want the RCMP to have my prints" thing doesn't matter... They have them already. I guarantee it.

[C.W.E.]

And if the spectre of the possibility of ramifications should such an occurrence happen is used to justify it, then I'm with . and agree today's society makes me say "Sorry, not worth it."

Exactly, I have a pile of old passport books with visas for over fifty different countries around the world and having been checked and examined in every possible method known to man it was my experience the more deplorable and primitive the countries were the more difficult it was getting the visas and going through their medieval checking process.

So I'll be damned if I will submit to proving to anyone I am not a child molester for the privilege of giving freely of my time and money to an organisation that demands I submit to further checks and that includes COPA.

[CanadianBird]

Reasons for the checks, are to protect the kids! Simple as that.

I'll ask again - protect them from what? Has there ever been a case of child molestation at any CFK or Young Eagles volunteer flight program? You can't say your protecting anybody if the event you're concerned about has never happened. And if you claim that you're doing it to prevent a "what if" from happening, you're paranoid. And in my opinion paranoia is never a good reason to do anything.

And if the spectre of the possibility of ramifications should such an occurrence happen is used to justify it, then I'm with . and agree today's society makes me say "Sorry, not worth it."

Was there a case of Child molestation in Junior hockey before Graham James? What about Catholic churches? US gymnastics? That's what they're trying to protect. Having someone slip through the cracks, and at the same time, protecting themselves from any potential lawsuits, with due diligence. Welcome to 2019.

[C.W.E.]

So assuming someone goes through a check to see if they have a record of child molestation and they have no record is that proof they are not a child molester?

[aeroncasuperchief]

So I'll be damned if I will submit to proving to anyone I am not a child molester for the privilege of giving freely of my time and money to an organisation that demands I submit to further checks and that includes COPA.

So assuming someone goes through a check to see if they have a record of child molestation and they have no record is that proof they are not a child molester?

It is refreshing to hear your non-politically correct and honest replies, soon that will not be allowed. ( look at Germany, Sweden )

I confess, I am a molester of this 8 % beer at this very moment ! but you would NEVER find out on a criminal check !

I wonder if the RCC has pedofile insurance , If they did, I would imagine it is for the priests only ( PIC of the pulpit lol )
Laws are made for the sheeple, those in power are mostly above the law !

[C.W.E.]

It is refreshing to hear your non-politically correct and honest replies, soon that will not be allowed.

Thanks ::

Being politically correct is bowing meekly to the intolerance of those who demand you agree with their views.

I come from an era where we did not submit to bullies, we stood up to them.

[C.W.E.]

Just to clarify my position on child molesters.

If found guilty beyond doubt in a trial they should be put in prison.

But not in protective custody, they should be put in the general prison population and the other prisoners should know why they are there.

[C-GKNT]

My initial reaction to the request for finger printing was crap...how unlucky am I to have some creep with my name and date of birth in the offenders database, what are the odds/damn my bad luck and was going to proceed. I didn't get upset until I realized that the RCMP VSC requires fingerprinting triggered by a simple date of birth match.

//***OPINION ONLY No facts to back this up***
The reason I think the RCMP has resorted to a secondary check is that people are able to legally change their names but not their birth dates. However, the current system they have in place is not able to track name changes. As a result, they have decided to resort to fingerprinting in the case of a matching date of birth.

So...instead of having a system that can track legal name changes and link this information into the offenders database they decided on a system that requires the fingerprinting of a very large percentage of honest volunteers.

This warrants push back from all volunteer organizations (including COPA).
//***OPINION ONLY No facts to back this up***


I would appreciate if anyone with factual information on the topic would share.

Glenn

[AirFrame]

Was there a case of Child molestation in Junior hockey before Graham James? What about Catholic churches? US gymnastics? That's what they're trying to protect. Having someone slip through the cracks, and at the same time, protecting themselves from any potential lawsuits, with due diligence. Welcome to 2019.

To answer your first three questions: Yes, Yes, and Yes. Kids reported abuse for *decades* before people were caught. The kids weren't believed, they were ignored, they were told they "must have misinterpreted the situation," any excuse to avoid bringing shame down on the family or the organization.

But eventually these reached some sort of critical mass and eventually the perpetrators were caught. As you say, Welcome to 2019. Voices are being heard, and when these things happen now, it's much more likely that they will be brought to the surface quickly.

[CanadianBird]

Was there a case of Child molestation in Junior hockey before Graham James? What about Catholic churches? US gymnastics? That's what they're trying to protect. Having someone slip through the cracks, and at the same time, protecting themselves from any potential lawsuits, with due diligence. Welcome to 2019.

To answer your first three questions: Yes, Yes, and Yes. Kids reported abuse for *decades* before people were caught. The kids weren't believed, they were ignored, they were told they "must have misinterpreted the situation," any excuse to avoid bringing shame down on the family or the organization.

But eventually these reached some sort of critical mass and eventually the perpetrators were caught. As you say, Welcome to 2019. Voices are being heard, and when these things happen now, it's much more likely that they will be brought to the surface quickly.

Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.

[digits_]

Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.

I can offer you insurance to protect your kids! For a one time 50 CAD fee, I will cover any damage your kids might ever experience in their lifetime caused by a wild lion attack in Canada. Not only that, our company has proprietary techniques to make sure no kid in Canada ever falls victim to a wild lion in Canada. Join now and be protected for a lifetime.

Are you interested? Probably not.

Why not? Do you not care about the safety of your kids?

[C.W.E.]

Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.

Maybe I am really out of touch with today's society and the way things work.

When I was in the flying business and we offered kids rides the people who brought their kids for the free rides were generally local people who we knew and they knew us.

It they had fears that we were child molesters they would not have risked their kids with us.

In my opinion this asking for a background check s window dressing because the checks are far from fool proof.

Why doesn't COPA also check to make sure their wife's are safe around us as well as their children, if you are going to be suspicious why not cover all bases?

[Blakey]

Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.

I can offer you insurance to protect your kids! For a one time 50 CAD fee, I will cover any damage your kids might ever experience in their lifetime caused by a wild lion attack in Canada. Not only that, our company has proprietary techniques to make sure no kid in Canada ever falls victim to a wild lion in Canada. Join now and be protected for a lifetime.

Are you interested? Probably not.

Why not? Do you not care about the safety of your kids?

You might want to raise your rates a bit!

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/flo ... story.html

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/30/us/lion- ... index.html

[digits_]

Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.

I can offer you insurance to protect your kids! For a one time 50 CAD fee, I will cover any damage your kids might ever experience in their lifetime caused by a wild lion attack in Canada. Not only that, our company has proprietary techniques to make sure no kid in Canada ever falls victim to a wild lion in Canada. Join now and be protected for a lifetime.

Are you interested? Probably not.

Why not? Do you not care about the safety of your kids?

You might want to raise your rates a bit!

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/flo ... story.html

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/30/us/lion- ... index.html

That's why I specified wild lion attack. An escaped zoo lion is not a wild lion. But thank you for checking though

[aeroncasuperchief]

An escaped zoo lion is not a wild lion.

The nine yr old who gets his leg chewed on might differ !