Think carefully before you make your next move

[truedude]

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.

First off, I would never vote no believe there is a better deal. This comes to what I believe I am personally worth, and we as a group are wroth. If we vote no and it turns out we all get fucked, I will buy you a round. But if we vote yes, and still get fucked, you owe me a round. Deal?

[Side_slip]

I will be voting NO.

Can you imagine if the U.S. regionals locked in a 17 year TA (10 years cost neutral) when they were making $18k a year? Just under the guise of stability? Now they are getting signing bonuses and gains like never before. AC and Chorus know this is coming and want to lock us in at these bargain prices. Did you know on the new blended payscale it takes until 2030 for a 2nd year FO to make what they made on our pre-2015 pay scale in 2017? Complete joke. If they want us to sign an unprecedented 17 year TA they should have made us an unprecedented offer. This a sad load of trash.

[mbav8r]

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.

First off, I would never vote no believe there is a better deal. This comes to what I believe I am personally worth, and we as a group are wroth. If we vote no and it turns out we all get fucked, I will buy you a round. But if we vote yes, and still get fucked, you owe me a round. Deal?

It’s not about your worth, it’s about what you can get.
Did you do what I suggested? The cost of a pilot per seat is the biggest factor and is no doubt already factored in this deal, if we cost more per seat than mainline, how do you see that playing out?

[mbav8r]

I will be voting NO.

Can you imagine if the U.S. regionals locked in a 17 year TA (10 years cost neutral) when they were making $18k a year? Just under the guise of stability? Now they are getting signing bonuses and gains like never before. AC and Chorus know this is coming and want to lock us in at these bargain prices. Did you know on the new blended payscale it takes until 2030 for a 2nd year FO to make what they made on our pre-2015 pay scale in 2017? Complete joke. If they want us to sign an unprecedented 17 year TA they should have made us an unprecedented offer. This a sad load of trash.

We need to stop comparing ourselves to the current US landscape, when they were leading the race to the bottom were you in a hurry to join them?
All the gains being made in the US are outside of bargaining, for the most part and a direct result of not being able to put 250 hour pilots in a 50+ seat passenger jet, not indirectly, directly. Change that and I will stand with you on the picket line, without that we are not in the same boat.
One thing being looked at is the cadet program, join the program, sign your next 20 years over and we will train you into a job, so again, lobby the government to change the rule that allows a fresh CPL to occupy a transport category aircraft and I start picketing that day.

[truedude]

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.

First off, I would never vote no believe there is a better deal. This comes to what I believe I am personally worth, and we as a group are wroth. If we vote no and it turns out we all get fucked, I will buy you a round. But if we vote yes, and still get fucked, you owe me a round. Deal?

It’s not about your worth, it’s about what you can get.
Did you do what I suggested? The cost of a pilot per seat is the biggest factor and is no doubt already factored in this deal, if we cost more per seat than mainline, how do you see that playing out?

And I say we can get/deserve a one time large signing bonus. The number spread out over 17 years ends up being virtually nothing a month per pilot and will add what, .01 of a cent to the ASM price.. if that? They can take out a low interest loan and pay it back over the next seventeen years and be fine. This is worth something today! If it isn't I am sure management will forgo all their bonuses?

In the end, I will no longer go through life worrying about the deal I can get. I know my worth, and will seek it out. If it isn't at Jazz, then so be it. And I am not speaking solely in monetary terms. My vote is no, if others vote yes, i respect it, won't be grudge it, and continue on with no hard feelings or bitterness.

[Malfunction]

My vote is also no.
We can do better everyone, jazz is making alot of money on this deal, we are not getting much...

[Character]

Haven’t posted in a VERY long time. I’m doing so because of my belief that we need to vote YES. Are we worth more? Yes. Is it worth gambling my pension, my accrued seniority, my career stability. No. In the end, as a 13 yr Jazz pilot, I’m paid fairly, I’ve been afforded a great quality of life and I have a pension that I hold dear to my heart. We cannot compare ourselves to the US pilot compensation packages anymore than the AC pilots. We operate under a unique set of circumstances under the umbrella of a CPA. CR is a shrewd and more importantly spiteful individual. Rest assured, there’s a plan B, and it won’t benefit our group. This of course is my opinion. It is nothing more than food for thought as I take and respect everyone’s opinion on this forum. It is unfortunate that our MEC has tabled this deal in the first place to our group however, we have now been put into a dangerous position and what I believe to be a fork in the road moment. I simply am not comfortable taking a gamble, therefore I vote Yes and I implore others to think about potential consequences. Thanks.

Character

[Malfunction]

There is alot of money on the table for both parties, are you sure ac and jazz will walk away from increasing wages by a little bit. I dont, I think we can fix the 2015 deal here. MAKE JAZZ GREAT AGAIN!

[C-GGGQ]

While I understand the fears here especially due to who you are dealing with, I don't see them being able to roll up jazz like they are doing to Georgian. Why? Almost no one outside of our profession knows there is an Air Georgian. It's just AC express to them or even more incorrectly Jazz (yes there is a large portion of Joe q public who thinks anything painted AC express is just Jazz.) Jazz is a name everyone across the country remembers. It would be a hard sell that any reason other than spite was behind any move to get rid of it.

[mbav8r]

Maybe we should poll the SR pilots, show them our contract and see how they would vote, my guess it would pass.
Now, that being said, if Rovinescue’s plan B is to walk across the street, all he has to do is take this contract and say this will be your CPA 2025 on, how would that vote go?
If you are willing to find that out, just remember, it’s not just your career you’re gambling with, it’s all of ours and I’m truly hoping we live to fight another day.
I once negotiated a raise for myself because I felt I was worth more, I was making 20% more than the four other pilots doing the same job. One night the the payroll office door was left open and another pilot saw the payroll book open on her desk(his story), anyhow he told the other pilots and they went to the owner to demand more or they quit.
The owner came to me and explained the situation and that he could not afford to pay the pilots the same so wanted me to take a pay cut back to the original salary, I did.
It was not about me and what I was worth at the moment it was about the good of the company and later on, about a year later I was management with a negotiated salary that reflected my worth and my sacrifice earlier.
The problem here is you think Air Canada is desperate with no options, that would be a mistake to think that, absolute best case we turn it down and they come back with a few tweaks, worst case we are all hoping SR pilots will give us date of hire in five years when they take over for us.
Even with the best case, a few tweaks would be all we could hope to attain but one thing for sure a no vote signals to Calin he’s still dealing with the same group of pilots who will hold him hostage again in 2025 when our contract does expire, he will initiate plan b long before that.

[truedude]

Maybe we should poll the SR pilots, show them our contract and see how they would vote, my guess it would pass.
Now, that being said, if Rovinescue’s plan B is to walk across the street, all he has to do is take this contract and say this will be your CPA 2025 on, how would that vote go?
If you are willing to find that out, just remember, it’s not just your career you’re gambling with, it’s all of ours and I’m truly hoping we live to fight another day.
I once negotiated a raise for myself because I felt I was worth more, I was making 20% more than the four other pilots doing the same job. One night the the payroll office door was left open and another pilot saw the payroll book open on her desk(his story), anyhow he told the other pilots and they went to the owner to demand more or they quit.
The owner came to me and explained the situation and that he could not afford to pay the pilots the same so wanted me to take a pay cut back to the original salary, I did.
It was not about me and what I was worth at the moment it was about the good of the company and later on, about a year later I was management with a negotiated salary that reflected my worth and my sacrifice earlier.
The problem here is you think Air Canada is desperate with no options, that would be a mistake to think that, absolute best case we turn it down and they come back with a few tweaks, worst case we are all hoping SR pilots will give us date of hire in five years when they take over for us.
Even with the best case, a few tweaks would be all we could hope to attain but one thing for sure a no vote signals to Calin he’s still dealing with the same group of pilots who will hold him hostage again in 2025 when our contract does expire, he will initiate plan b long before that.

I guess we would all have jobs at Sky Regional! With DOH... Sweet deal!

[gonnabeapilot]

I guess we would all have jobs at Sky Regional! With DOH... Sweet deal!

This pretty much sums it up and is why I don't understand why so many Jazz folks on this thread are panicked by a no vote. This TA is proof that AC can't even transfer 12 RJs from Georgian to Jazz without transferring the pilots between companies as well. Chorus is even willing to accept pay guarantees and DOH to facilitate it. Anything other than a seamless transfer of pilots between companies will result in an unacceptable amount of schedule disruption to AC.

In 2025 the CPA has Jazz operating 105 aircraft. Let's say AC only magically needs 80 aircraft starting in 2026. Do you really think they can move 80 aircraft between two CPA carriers without making a deal to move pilots as well?? If they can't do it for 12 RJs they certainly can't do it with 80s. Your jobs will be safe. You just might be wearing a different uniform and collecting a slightly different paycheck instead.

[fish4life]

Haven’t posted in a VERY long time. I’m doing so because of my belief that we need to vote YES. Are we worth more? Yes. Is it worth gambling my pension, my accrued seniority, my career stability. No. In the end, as a 13 yr Jazz pilot, I’m paid fairly, I’ve been afforded a great quality of life and I have a pension that I hold dear to my heart. We cannot compare ourselves to the US pilot compensation packages anymore than the AC pilots. We operate under a unique set of circumstances under the umbrella of a CPA. CR is a shrewd and more importantly spiteful individual. Rest assured, there’s a plan B, and it won’t benefit our group. This of course is my opinion. It is nothing more than food for thought as I take and respect everyone’s opinion on this forum. It is unfortunate that our MEC has tabled this deal in the first place to our group however, we have now been put into a dangerous position and what I believe to be a fork in the road moment. I simply am not comfortable taking a gamble, therefore I vote Yes and I implore others to think about potential consequences. Thanks.

Character

In order to do that you are going to ensure that every new hire for the next 17 years is going to be poorest paid regional pilot in the country.

[groundpilot]

Or the world?

[groundpilot]

Haven’t posted in a VERY long time. I’m doing so because of my belief that we need to vote YES. Are we worth more? Yes. Is it worth gambling my pension, my accrued seniority, my career stability. No. In the end, as a 13 yr Jazz pilot, I’m paid fairly, I’ve been afforded a great quality of life and I have a pension that I hold dear to my heart. We cannot compare ourselves to the US pilot compensation packages anymore than the AC pilots. We operate under a unique set of circumstances under the umbrella of a CPA. CR is a shrewd and more importantly spiteful individual. Rest assured, there’s a plan B, and it won’t benefit our group. This of course is my opinion. It is nothing more than food for thought as I take and respect everyone’s opinion on this forum. It is unfortunate that our MEC has tabled this deal in the first place to our group however, we have now been put into a dangerous position and what I believe to be a fork in the road moment. I simply am not comfortable taking a gamble, therefore I vote Yes and I implore others to think about potential consequences. Thanks.

Character

The theme of this message is why you have new hires at both Jazz & Mainline making what they do.

Senior members throwing the junior members under the bus.

Do you think a FO should make $40 a hourly to operating advanced aircraft in challenging weather & terrain?

Pacific Coastal FOs on B1900s make more to start.

Stand up. This isnt only about Jazz. This deal stinks and a hard NO is what this industry needs...

[Character]

I truly understand the pains associated with our starting salaries. They are atrocious. I started at $34k and $38k respectively in my first 2 years. They were very difficult with kids and a house to pay for. Just because I made such paltry wages doesn’t make it right for new hires to also make such unjust wages. There was however, light at the end of the tunnel and I was rewarded here after a number of difficult years financially. So don’t think for a second I do not understand your posn. I have been here for numerous contracts however, and I have a different vantage point (financially...thankfully) now than I did then. We, as a senior group gained NOTHING financially other than the status quo in this contract in order for improvemts to the post 2015 hires. Every FO I work with wants to go to AC and quite frankly, they should go, as it’s still the premium work place in Canada. They wanted an opportunity to go with language that supports that desire. They also wanted to rid themselves of the B scale, of which never should have been accepted. Hopefully we’ve made a step in the right direction. The post 2015 hires have had an opportunity to go Capt much quicker than I ever did and I’m happy for them. I had to wait too long for my opp to go left seat due to a stagnant industry and retirements that got extended 5 yrs. There’s really no point to the afformentioned info, other to paint a picture that I understand. I simply fall victim to the perceived (real or otherwise) threat of a plan B by CR. Some of us can afford to wager our current position on our future and others, such as myself can’t. Therefore, I am voting yes. I represent 1 vote. Their are numerous things to consider and this contract vote deserves serious thought by all of the various age groups in our group. That is all. No ill intent intended. The original post was ‘think carefully before your next move’ and I thought it was aptly named and made me want to share my thoughts. Thanks.

[Blue Side Up]

I truly understand the pains associated with our starting salaries. They are atrocious. I started at $34k and $38k respectively in my first 2 years. They were very difficult with kids and a house to pay for. Just because I made such paltry wages doesn’t make it right for new hires to also make such unjust wages. There was however, light at the end of the tunnel and I was rewarded here after a number of difficult years financially. So don’t think for a second I do not understand your posn. I have been here for numerous contracts however, and I have a different vantage point (financially...thankfully) now than I did then. We, as a senior group gained NOTHING financially other than the status quo in this contract in order for improvemts to the post 2015 hires. Every FO I work with wants to go to AC and quite frankly, they should go, as it’s still the premium work place in Canada. They wanted an opportunity to go with language that supports that desire. They also wanted to rid themselves of the B scale, of which never should have been accepted. Hopefully we’ve made a step in the right direction. The post 2015 hires have had an opportunity to go Capt much quicker than I ever did and I’m happy for them. I had to wait too long for my opp to go left seat due to a stagnant industry and retirements that got extended 5 yrs. There’s really no point to the afformentioned info, other to paint a picture that I understand. I simply fall victim to the perceived (real or otherwise) threat of a plan B by CR. Some of us can afford to wager our current position on our future and others, such as myself can’t. Therefore, I am voting yes. I represent 1 vote. Their are numerous things to consider and this contract vote deserves serious thought by all of the various age groups in our group. That is all. No ill intent intended. The original post was ‘think carefully before your next move’ and I thought it was aptly named and made me want to share my thoughts. Thanks.

First off - we need to establish in what year you were making 34-38k. Making that amount even 10 years ago is irrelevant today. 10 years ago you can buy a house just outside of Toronto for $500k that today is worth over a million. I get that most pilots aren’t interested in macro economics and financial markets but acknowledging that 38k today is no where near what it was 10 years ago is step one. And if you’re argument is “you can live in Montreal or Calgary or live outside of Toronto” don’t waste your breath because i have dozens of counter arguments.

This contract is a joke. I was at Jazz for 4 years before I left to mainline and this contract is pissing me off even now. Management is playing the two ends of the spectrum here. Junior guys who want to go to mainline are voting yes. Senior guys who are less than 17 years away from retiring are going to vote yes for obvious reasons. The median guys are gonna get shafted with a disgusting 2% wage increase for 17 years.. 17 years! That’s insane!
Do you know what could happen in 17 years?? Right now the world is in a deflationary state after years and years of fiscal stimulus around the world. The 30 year bond bull market is coming to an end (we’ve seen breakouts through trend recently dating back to the 80s) What does a bond bear market look like you ask? A rising interest rate environment to combat inflation. We haven’t seen inflation affect the consumer as much as we have in fincaual assets (tons of inflation in the stock market and housing markets - particularly in Toronto and Vancouver)

Even if we get to 4% inflation - not even considering the possibility of 15+ % inflation that we saw in the 80s.. You’re purchasing power decreases by 2% compounded over 17 years! $100 dollars today would require $140 in 17 years to purchase the same amount of goods.

If you want to lock in the 17 year deal - do you. At least have the balls to add some wording to include variable inflation to keep up with CPI in the contract. These issues need to be brought up to your MEC! At least bring the contract back to the good ol” days prior to ‘15 when guys were proud to be Jazz pilots and wouldn’t mind hanging their hat at that company.

This industry sucks. Pilots need to learn about markets and business because without that knowledge we are doomed!

[Blue Side Up]

If you don’t understand how this works yet here’s a quick breakdown. People running the show who have great insight into business and investing exploit pilots’ lack of knowledge in economics and business to further their needs. Why do you think AC is shifting the flying from Georgian to Jazz? Is it because Calin woke up one morning and felt like doing Jazz a solid? Or is this a strategic move to supply AC with a reliable regional network and steady supply of pilots? Hmm I wonder..

It’s clear Georgian dropped the ball and really fucked with ACs network and system. Just look at the bongo
board in Pearson and see the amount of delayed or cancelled Georgian flights. If you think they’re going to give all the 900s to Georgian because you voted no to this deal you’re not too bright. AC would never risk a fundamental part of their business (regional network) for a few bucks an hour for pilots pay. It would require a massive amount of investment in Georgian and SR for that matter to get them to Jazz’s standard of operation. AC is realizing that if you pay bananas (Georgian) you get a shit company that NO pilot wants to be at long term. It was a matter of time before this happened.

Don’t let the unknown guide you through this decision. If you don’t believe we’re in or entering a pilot shortage - you’re delusional. Look at the average time it takes to get to AC nowadays.. 3 years? Maybe 4? What was that from 1990-2015? 10 years? Some guys got on early - sure. But on average? I’m guessing around the 10 year mark. Ya sure you can keep sucking fresh CPLs out of college and they’ll fly you’re airplanes. What happens when a Q gets spun in to the ground like what happened at Colgan? All it takes is one major incident where pilot experience was a contributing factor and BAM! There’s your 1500 hr rule. Than are we in a pilot shortage?

If you’re gonna lock in a deal for 17 years it better satisfy every pilot across the curve - not just the juniors and seniors. You ALL deserve to have an awesome contract and pay that allows you to buy a house and raise a family close to the airport you fly out of. Living in Toronto with a young family is f**king expensive! Don’t sell yourselves short.

[fish4life]

Only a little over 17 years ago we weren’t sure if the world was going to melt down because no one knew if the computers programmed could handle the year 2000.
The iPhone was over 5 years away from being invented
9/11 was very very fresh in everyone’s mind
The average house price in Canada was a little over $160000

If there is a big downturn the company can come to the pilots and get a concessionary contract if they declare bankruptcy, if they start printing money what can the pilots do? Nothing except wish they didn’t sign a 17 year contract.

The only way I’d vote yes is if the CEO / BOD signed a deal tying their salaries to a 2% increase for the next 17 years as well.

[proper]

If it's a round of 120 mortgage payments...I'm IN!