Think carefully before you make your next move

[blueskiessabove]

To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.

[fish4life]

So everyone is so worried about Sky regional now... their STARTING FO pay is 20% higher than this Jazz new deal AND they just unionized so I bet they won’t be accepting lower pay. Let that sink in for a second.

[blueskiessabove]

We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!

Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.

Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.

This kid that gives these speculations isn't very bright. There is a huge shortage and that's why all of this is happening give your head a shake. It's a solid NO for me and I'm gonna educate everyone that is thinking to vote Yes to think twice. SAD SAD state were in when people are voting yes cause there scared.

[V1Vr]

So everyone is so worried about Sky regional now... their STARTING FO pay is 20% higher than this Jazz new deal AND they just unionized so I bet they won’t be accepting lower pay. Let that sink in for a second.

They also cap out at what, 6 years?

If anyone is actually worried about a pilot shortage, as soon as a company starts cancelling flights because they don't have staff I'm sure they would come back to rectify entry level wages.

[nogo]

The yes voters are playing right into Calin Rovinescu's game. Listen to the man himself. Quotes from Calin:

"Fear paralyzes. Absolute fear paralyzes absolutely."
"Avoiding mediocrity involves taking some risk."
"...be unreasonable in your expectations..."
Calin Rovinescu

Source:
https://www.uottawa.ca/president/honora ... -rovinescu

Anyone that believes AC will have 17 years of massive hiring must be incredibly naive in my opinion. To throw the entire industry under the bus for something that AC may go back on their word, and they have in the past and they will again. And then how are you going to file a grievance again them? You can only grieve your own employer. ALPA already admitted to us in our face at the YUL road show that the bargaining process is corrupt and vote yes or else, no way in 9 lives are they going to grieve AC for you and get in a 3 way legal battle. To me they have already showed me that they can't do anything for us. AC has another contract with better numbers all drawn out. The one they want us to actually vote yes on. This is just the Art of the Deal; propose something so outrageous that your adversary will accept the mediocre offer #2 which is actually the mediocre offer they were hoping you would sign. The only offer I would sign is offer #3, which is also drawn up. In the 2025, AC has lot of union contracts within AC to re-negotiate. It will be an interesting year, and the management will be different.

Air Georgian is a failed experiment, they won't be propped up anymore, or else the new planes would have already been there. Air Georgian is too much of a liability for Air Canada. It's a multi-billion dollar global business. The risk assessment for AC came out that they (Air Georgian) have the highest potential of putting an airplane in the ground in the entire Air Canada network with the Air Canada colors on the tail. Not the type of Global News Air Canada want to make. Who is left? Sky Regional?... Who are their investors? Who payed to prop up that company? Who paid for and gave them the Airplanes? Oh ya.. Air Canada. So we'll just go to Sky Regional with our DOH if their was any weight to these threats. You Pilots have a lot more WEIGHT and CLOUT then you are giving yourself credit for. YOU have a massive upper hand, and Calin Rovinescu is not going to chop your hands off, he is trying to make you chop your own hands off! He is a genius, and is a master at his craft. His craft, instilling doubt and fear! Doubt. Think about that word for a little moment and think about Calin's education. He is Lawyer by education and by trade, and do you know how Lawyers win incredibly difficult cases in Criminal Law at least? By instilling just enough doubt, because the burden of proof is beyond any reasonable doubt.

About absorbing the Air Georgian Pilots with DOH. If ALPA is telling us that AC taking their flying away gives them the right to have a lateral transfer to JAZZ, then if and when AC takes our flying away from us (common employer) they owe us a job with a lateral transfer. If ALPA disagrees with that, start asking questions about who they are really working for, because "the whole bargaining process is corrupt." Forgot which rep said it at the road show, but they have it on video.

[blueskiessabove]

I will be voting NO.

Can you imagine if the U.S. regionals locked in a 17 year TA (10 years cost neutral) when they were making $18k a year? Just under the guise of stability? Now they are getting signing bonuses and gains like never before. AC and Chorus know this is coming and want to lock us in at these bargain prices. Did you know on the new blended payscale it takes until 2030 for a 2nd year FO to make what they made on our pre-2015 pay scale in 2017? Complete joke. If they want us to sign an unprecedented 17 year TA they should have made us an unprecedented offer. This a sad load of trash.

I could not agree with you more . All these people that think this is the best we are gonna get are crazy and i'll informed. This contract is a joke. BIG FAT NO! vote for me too.

[47north]

To all my fellow aviators out there, think twice about voting yes. If you do you should be ashamed of yourself, this is the reason why the industry is so shitty in Canada and isn't getting better. Stop letting the fear mongering tactics get to you. Jazz isn't going anywhere and will be around for a long time to come. For the people just thinking about them selves to go to AC... think about the next generation behind you. The people that think about them selves shouldn't even be allowed to have a vote, there is a much bigger plot at play and that's how long can AC keep shitting on everyone.

What is shameful is that you blueskiesabove, as an LEC/MEC member, is telling Jazz pilots that they should be ashamed of voting the way they want.

Let me guess - Are you are one of the rogue members that tried to instigate a coup recently and now you are pissed that didn't succeed and are trying to push your own political agenda?

You tell others to 'stop letting fear mongering tactics get to you', yet you are doing the exactly the same thing to push forward your own agenda. You should know full well that we will not be locked into the same conditions for the full length of the TA. If we as pilots are such a finite resource as you say, the company will be back to sweeten the pot along the way - as they have with this MOS well in advance of the end of the current TA and as had been the case with US regionals.

Meanwhile the rest of the MEC has taken the rational approach that is is better to secure the work and a concrete flow to AC for all those that wish to take that path.

For the record I am not an ALPA officer, just a member who thinks that an MEC member should not be posting anonymously on this form. I hope other members recognize what your true agenda is here.

BTW my vote is an unconditional YES!

[C-GGGQ]

So your vote to locking Ina 17 year contract is yes, because you won't REALLY be locked in? That's a big gamble.

[negative.g]

47north a question for you?

So the AC flow is written into the TA? And it says 90% of applications will be hired? and 60% of GS to be Jazz pilots?
Also you are saying that this contract will not run till 2035? It will be renegotiated before then? Is that also written in some where?

[DanWEC]

I don't know the specifics of the Jazz contract, and I'm not employed there, so take this post as more of a commentary than aimed specifically at the contract.

The pilot shortage is growing every year by an additional deficit of 500 pilots. That's every, single, year with no sign of that changing whatsoever. The real worst of it hasn't hit 705 yet until the current adaptation strategy of reducing hours has been used up and hits the stop.

The company knows this, and obviously every major airline has made projections and had a strategy in place to address it, as it will be a major problem in a few more years.

Just remember guys, WHY does this shortage exist in the first place? Because of endless concessions, negotiations, and CARROTS.

Think about why there would be signing bonus for such a deal? Dont we all "bribe" our kids to do something they don't want to do?

There are also just 2 express carriers now Jazz and Sky, both under ALPA now. Sky is about to begin tabling negotiations for their first contract, and a crappy precedent set by Jazz would severely weaken their position to increase wages. Think about the big picture guys!

Don't forget, for the first time ever, we're holding the cards, and our hand is getting better every day. Don't take yet another concession for no reason whatsoever.

If you want to go to AC, you'll get there soon enough regardless of your path. TS and SW know this as well, which is why they're trying to retain and make life as desirable as they can for their groups.

Within 5 years, he who has the pilots, wins.

[DanWEC]

(Double)

[negative.g]

They obviously they have never had to bribe their kids as the incentive signing bonus is about 1300 bucks.

[Rowdy]

They obviously they have never had to bribe their kids as the incentive signing bonus is about 1300 bucks.

2,000,000/1550 = 1290.32 X 0.7 = 903.22

Nine hundred and three dollars.

[47north]

47north a question for you?

So the AC flow is written into the TA? And it says 90% of applications will be hired? and 60% of GS to be Jazz pilots?
Also you are saying that this contract will not run till 2035? It will be renegotiated before then? Is that also written in some where?

I absolutely believe there will be more negotiations to come. We are 4 years into a ten year agreement and there have been revisions. The same will hold for the future.

Meanwhile we will have secured the work. Those who think Georgian is dead better think again. They have an operating certificate and it is very easy for them to add 900s to that. Speaking to someone that would know, I’m told they were in active negations to do just that when Jazz and ALPA were able to negotiate them away to Jazz.

The very real concern is that we don’t secure that work, AC gives it to Georgian or Sky and we quietly shrink until 2025. Yes we have fleet guarantees, but AC has already strongly indicated that they want to wind down the -100 fleet. We could end up with the hours being dropped to the minimum guarantee and many junior pilots sitting on reserve for a long time. Yes some may go to AC, but spite is a terrible thing. AC can easily say hire Jazz last squandering a great opportunity.

A better option is to secure the fleet which gives senior members job security to finish out their careers and secure a guaranteed path to AC for those that want to go. For the ones ‘in the middle’, attrition will work in their favour providing better opportunities for upgrades, etc.

Market forces will force the compensation up here just like it has south of the border and elsewhere.

[C-GGGQ]

If as you believe they can open this up whenever (based on this example) then you haven't secured jack. They can take it back just as easily as offer more.

[negative.g]

Thanks Rowdy I stand corrected.

Why does Jazz want it signed till 2035 then if they are just going to renegotiate sooner? Why not 5 years?
There is no guarantee Tommy Boy taught me that back in the 90's. If only him and Richard could come and take over the Jazz pilots would be far better off.

[nogo]

The yes voters are playing right into Calin Rovinescu's game. Listen to the man himself. Quotes from Calin:

"Fear paralyzes. Absolute fear paralyzes absolutely."
"Avoiding mediocrity involves taking some risk."
"...be unreasonable in your expectations..."
Calin Rovinescu

Source:
University of Ottawa, out of a speech he gave to graduates from faculty of law.

Anyone that believes AC will have 17 years of massive hiring must be incredibly naive in my opinion. To throw the entire industry under the bus for something that AC may go back on their word, and they have in the past and they will again. And then how are you going to file a grievance against them? You can only grieve your own employer. ALPA already admitted to us in our face at the YUL road show that the bargaining process is corrupt and vote yes or else. No way in 9 lives are they going to grieve AC for you and get in a 3 way legal battle when Air Canada fails to deliver on their "promises". To me they have already showed me that they can't do anything for us. AC has another contract with better numbers all drawn out. The one they want us to actually vote yes on. This is just the Art of the Deal; propose something so outrageous that your adversary will accept the mediocre offer #2 which is actually the mediocre offer they were hoping you would sign. The only offer I would sign is offer #3, which is also drawn up. In 2025, AC has lot of union contracts within AC to re-negotiate. It will be an interesting year, and the management will be different by then.

Air Georgian is a failed experiment, they won't be propped up anymore, or else the new planes would have already been there. Air Georgian is too much of a liability for Air Canada. It's a multi-billion dollar global business. The risk assessment for AC came out that they (Air Georgian) have the highest potential of putting an airplane in the ground in the entire Air Canada network, with the Air Canada colors on the tail. Not the type of Global News Air Canada want to make. Who is left? Sky Regional?... Who are their investors? Who payed to prop up that company? Who paid for and gave them the Airplanes? Oh ya.. Air Canada. So we'll just go to Sky Regional with our DOH if their was any weight to the threats we are presently subjected to. Us Pilots have a lot more WEIGHT and CLOUT then we are giving ourselves credit for. WE have a massive upper hand, and Calin Rovinescu is not going to chop our hands off, he is trying to make us chop our own hands off! He is a genius, and is a master at his craft. His craft, instilling doubt and fear! Doubt. Think about that word for a little moment and think about Calin's education. He is a Lawyer by education and by trade, and a very good one and do you know how Lawyers win incredibly difficult cases in Criminal Law? By instilling just enough doubt, because the burden of proof is beyond any reasonable doubt.

About absorbing the Air Georgian Pilots with DOH. If ALPA is telling us that AC taking their flying away gives them the right to have a lateral transfer to JAZZ, then if and when AC takes our flying away from us (common employer) they owe us a job with a lateral transfer. If ALPA disagrees with that, start asking questions about who they are really working for, because "the whole bargaining process is corrupt." Forgot which rep said it at the road show, but they have it on video.

[Al Borlin]

I can't imagine and better time in recent history to negotiate. Even the most pessimistic, demoralized defeatist can see there is a massive upside looming on the industry. Don't sell the farm (again) because you think it's going to change flow to AC. AC is dependent on Jazz delivering pilots regardless of the outcome. The carrot chasing doesn't change when you get to AC either. 2-4 years of being a senior widebody captain isn't worth making concessions for throughout your entire career. I am not at jazz, so this is easy for me to say, but I think you should recognize your worth, because from my vantage point I think the largest regional group in the country is going to be extremely valuable in the coming decade. Goodluck!

[ikarus]

Just remember guys, WHY does this shortage exist in the first place? Because of endless concessions, negotiations, and CARROTS.

Think about why there would be signing bonus for such a deal? Dont we all "bribe" our kids to do something they don't want to do?

There are also just 2 express carriers now Jazz and Sky, both under ALPA now. Sky is about to begin tabling negotiations for their first contract, and a crappy precedent set by Jazz would severely weaken their position to increase wages. Think about the big picture guys!

Very true!

But sadly we are just a heard of ignorant and egoistic people who can't see far ahead. I know a bunch of senior guys will vote yes, because it's a safe bet, they're on the way out soon. The middle seniority who have given up on AC are desperate to get off the crappy "prop" and want to be back on the mighty CRJ and the bottom junior guys don't give a crap about staying at Jazz (rightly so, after getting sold out for the second time since 2015) so all they care is a flow through to AC....and that leaves the minority of guys who are not willing to sell them selves short or others for whopping 2% + $1300 (before tax).....

And then wonder how did we get here .....well just look at the mirror guys.

[dh89]

I would like to remind my fellow peers that you are in as good a position to negotiate for better terms as ever. We in Canada have become the rock bottom of the industry when it comes to compensation. When the AC directors and board decide to eliminate one carrier’s contract and give the fleet to chorus, along with taking a 10% stake in the company, it is obvious that they want the company to growth. Otherwise they wouldnt do it. The whole talk of eliminating jazz is nothing but fear tactics to lock us up to a crap contract for 17 years. Who knows what the cost of living will be during that time. Sure has increased by more than the 2%!
I really hope everyone votes with the thought of not just themselves; as well as those behind them. Not all of us have ambitions of going to mainline. There is a massive pilot shortage and there is no way that another carrier can hire enough pilots to cover our 700+ flights a day. If anything they would have to hire former jazz guys/gals. I also hope we can have the georgian pilots join us without any harm to our seniority while still providing a good workplace for them after working for such an operator.
When we crunch the numbers, pilot wages amount to much less than 1% of an airline’s bill. We need a piece of the pie.
As for the flowthrough for AC, the numbers will be the same as the ratio is already there atm going into air canada.
Just my 2 cents. I hope everyone gets what they want, you’re all worth your weight and skills.

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