Deal or No Deal?

[blueskiessabove]

To all my fellow JAZZ aviators, do yourself a favor and get informed. Talk to your ALPA reps, talk to the negotiating committee, read your CA, read the MOS. Grill both the yes and no camp, ask them what is their vision and strategy past the ratification vote. And when you are happy with the info you got, vote what you feel is right be it yes or no, not what some schmuck hiding on a forum behind 3-4 aliases is telling you to.

All non-Jazz folks with all due respect, keep your uninformed opinion on how the vote should go to yourself.

58

To quote this individual who doesn't know what he's talking about. I'll tell all you fellow Jazz Pilots. What if you vote "yes" contract goes through. 6 months later interview at AC and your unsuccessful plus the GGN guys coming in and taking a senior spot to you potentially. Then what?. your locked in a raw deal till 2035 that saves AC 50million a year, when these things could be going towards our wages.
Just a thought when the people that only have there own prerogatives in mine. Think of the next generation behind you who may start at Jazz.

Just a thought

[blueskiessabove]

To quote this individual who doesn't know what he's talking about. I'll tell all you fellow Jazz Pilots. What if you vote "yes" contract goes through. 6 months later interview at AC and your unsuccessful plus the GGN guys coming in and taking a senior spot to you potentially. Then what?. your locked in a raw deal till 2035 that saves AC 50million a year, when these things could be going towards our wages.
Just a thought when the people that only have there own prerogatives in mine. Think of the next generation behind you who may start at Jazz.

Just a thought

[Outlaw58]

Just to be clear, I am not advocating voting one way or another...all I am saying is get your information from proper sources and not from just 1 source. Never meant to offend anyone here, sorry if I did.

58

[hithere]

You will have a far better chance of getting hired under the PML contained in the new contract than the current one. Current PFO rate somewhere between 20-50%. New contract will be max 10% PFO. Don’t believe me? Go to a roadshow and/or open house, view the roadshow video when it comes out on the 23rd and real the MOS. Get informed

[RRJetPilot]

So AC is planning to lower their hiring/interview standards to allow specifically allow more JAZZ pilots to pass? First I hear of this.

[hithere]

If you are asking this question as a Jazz pilot then you need to read the MOS. The details are there

[JoeyBarton]

Honestly guys already on the property want to go to ac, and if pfod will jump ship to ts or sw. You can increase the pay by all you want, it will never come close to a 737 payscale and most will leave anyways, for pay but also to fly something bigger on more international routes. Pay is not everything...ego is not the issue either, but you want to feel challenged and I feel most will not be content with flying a q or rj for the next 30 years..It is sad but I think a lot of the current jazz guys won't change their mind even for 15 or 20k more a year...

The gap is too big between the big 4 and the regionals...

[tkdowell]

When does the vote close?

[prop2jet]

Voting opens up tomorrow and runs for a week. Results will be known Jan 31.

[ikarus]

vote is open now...

[dh89]

I would like to remind my fellow peers that you are in as good a position to negotiate for better terms as ever. We in Canada have become the rock bottom of the industry when it comes to compensation. When the AC directors and board decide to eliminate one carrier’s contract and give the fleet to chorus, along with taking a 10% stake in the company, it is obvious that they want the company to growth. Otherwise they wouldnt do it. The whole talk of eliminating jazz is nothing but fear tactics to lock us up to a crap contract for 17 years. Who knows what the cost of living will be during that time. Sure has increased by more than the 2%!
I really hope everyone votes with the thought of not just themselves; as well as those behind them. Not all of us have ambitions of going to mainline. There is a massive pilot shortage and there is no way that another carrier can hire enough pilots to cover our 700+ flights a day. If anything they would have to hire former jazz guys/gals. I also hope we can have the georgian pilots join us without any harm to our seniority while still providing a good workplace for them after working for such an operator.
When we crunch the numbers, pilot wages amount to much less than 1% of an airline’s bill. We need a piece of the pie.
As for the flowthrough for AC, the numbers will be the same as the ratio is already there atm going into air canada.
Just my 2 cents. I hope everyone gets what they want, you’re all worth your weight and skills.

[proper]

Says the 4 post wonder...

[ikarus]

Says the 4 post wonder...

Whats your point????

[V1Vr]

I happily checked YES today.

[Kapitanov]

I happily checked NO today.

[BOXUM3]

Excuse my ignorance, I'm just a guy that would like to join at Jazz as a pilot one day, who finds all this quite interesting.

Why would people vote yes? I mean this on a strictly principles of negotiation basis. I understand bean counters because I've been one for a number of years. As a rule of thumb, never accept the first offer, lol. Management prepares for every eventuality and usually has a few carrots they hold back in the case the initial offer is rejected. At the very least you'd get another one on the table with a few more tweaks, and terms that are a bit more favorable. I'd personally wait for that one, but of course everyone has their circumstances and reasons for voting otherwise.

Also, if someone can clarify one thing I missed, is that if ratified, would this agreement be effective immediately, or after the current agreement with all the express carriers has ended in 2025?


- Your friendly neighborhood STAR

[V1Vr]

Excuse my ignorance, I'm just a guy that would like to join at Jazz as a pilot one day, who finds all this quite interesting.

Why would people vote yes? I mean this on a strictly principles of negotiation basis. I understand bean counters because I've been one for a number of years. As a rule of thumb, never accept the first offer, lol. Management prepares for every eventuality and usually has a few carrots they hold back in the case the initial offer is rejected. At the very least you'd get another one on the table with a few more tweaks, and terms that are a bit more favorable. I'd personally wait for that one, but of course everyone has their circumstances and reasons for voting otherwise.

Also, if someone can clarify one thing I missed, is that if ratified, would this agreement be effective immediately, or after the current agreement with all the express carriers has ended in 2025?


- Your friendly neighborhood STAR

At the road show they said this wasn't the first offer. And that we "didn't see the first offer."

[C-GGGQ]

Yeah of course they said that. But it was the first offer good enough to bring forward. It certainly isn't a final offer.

[V1Vr]

Yeah of course they said that. But it was the first offer good enough to bring forward. It certainly isn't a final offer.

I guess we'll have to see if it gets voted down. I don't think I'm willing to gamble my future on a maybe. That's my view and everyone else has theirs. I'm glad we're a democracy and the majority vote rules.

[blueskiessabove]

Yeah of course they said that. But it was the first offer good enough to bring forward. It certainly isn't a final offer.

I guess we'll have to see if it gets voted down. I don't think I'm willing to gamble my future on a maybe. That's my view and everyone else has theirs. I'm glad we're a democracy and the majority vote rules.

Your not gambling your future just everyone else by voting yes. Damaging the future generations to come, and discouraging future aviators from perusing a flying career cause the wages and perks are shit and locking in a contract for 17 years. If people knew businesses NO ONE SIGNS A 17 YEAR CONTRACT. It's ludicrous. I truly feel for our future pilots who will get hurt by this if this contract goes through. As a fellow jazz pilot we were all affected by the last contract and seems that if it does go through will follow in the same footsteps. Finders crossed it gets turned down by a drastic amount.

[tdp19]

Your not gambling your future just everyone else by voting yes. Damaging the future generations to come, and discouraging future aviators from perusing a flying career cause the wages and perks are shit and locking in a contract for 17 years. If people knew businesses NO ONE SIGNS A 17 YEAR CONTRACT. It's ludicrous. I truly feel for our future pilots who will get hurt by this if this contract goes through. As a fellow jazz pilot we were all affected by the last contract and seems that if it does go through will follow in the same footsteps. Finders crossed it gets turned down by a drastic amount.
[/quote]

I completely agree. If this deal passes, aviation in Canada is toast. A 17 year deal is ludicrous! We still have 6 more years of a 10 year deal at AC and it is so frustrating because its probably the best times in aviation history in Canada and we are stuck with 2% a year pay increase while companies in the US are getting anywhere from 25-50% increases. Sadly I think it will pass because upper management is smart. They know that the guys with less than 17 years to go in their career will probably vote yes because they want job security until they retire and the majority of the bottom half of the list will want to go to AC.

[av8ts]

Your not gambling your future just everyone else by voting yes. Damaging the future generations to come, and discouraging future aviators from perusing a flying career cause the wages and perks are shit and locking in a contract for 17 years. If people knew businesses NO ONE SIGNS A 17 YEAR CONTRACT. It's ludicrous. I truly feel for our future pilots who will get hurt by this if this contract goes through. As a fellow jazz pilot we were all affected by the last contract and seems that if it does go through will follow in the same footsteps. Finders crossed it gets turned down by a drastic amount.

They know that the guys with less than 17 years to go in their career will probably vote yes because they want job security until they retire and the majority of the bottom half of the list will want to go to AC.
[/quote]

So your saying it’s a good deal for the majority of Jazz Pilots

[tdp19]

Your not gambling your future just everyone else by voting yes. Damaging the future generations to come, and discouraging future aviators from perusing a flying career cause the wages and perks are shit and locking in a contract for 17 years. If people knew businesses NO ONE SIGNS A 17 YEAR CONTRACT. It's ludicrous. I truly feel for our future pilots who will get hurt by this if this contract goes through. As a fellow jazz pilot we were all affected by the last contract and seems that if it does go through will follow in the same footsteps. Finders crossed it gets turned down by a drastic amount.

They know that the guys with less than 17 years to go in their career will probably vote yes because they want job security until they retire and the majority of the bottom half of the list will want to go to AC.

So your saying it’s a good deal for the majority of Jazz Pilots
[/quote]

Not at all, I’m saying it’s a terrible deal for all pilots including the jazz guys. We are worth more than a 2 percent increase and if this deal passes it will affect all pilots in canada not just jazz. So for the guys that want to come over on pml 3.0 or whatever it will be called, if you vote yes to this garbage contract you will be ruining the working conditions and pay for all future pilots as well as your careers when you come over to AC. Their are a lot of things that need to improve at AC and if this 17 year deal passes it will set the precitent for future negotiations for all companies in Canada.

[LtDan]

Your not gambling your future just everyone else by voting yes. Damaging the future generations to come, and discouraging future aviators from perusing a flying career cause the wages and perks are shit and locking in a contract for 17 years. If people knew businesses NO ONE SIGNS A 17 YEAR CONTRACT. It's ludicrous. I truly feel for our future pilots who will get hurt by this if this contract goes through. As a fellow jazz pilot we were all affected by the last contract and seems that if it does go through will follow in the same footsteps. Finders crossed it gets turned down by a drastic amount.

They know that the guys with less than 17 years to go in their career will probably vote yes because they want job security until they retire and the majority of the bottom half of the list will want to go to AC.

So your saying it’s a good deal for the majority of Jazz Pilots

Not at all, I’m saying it’s a terrible deal for all pilots including the jazz guys. We are worth more than a 2 percent increase and if this deal passes it will affect all pilots in canada not just jazz. So for the guys that want to come over on pml 3.0 or whatever it will be called, if you vote yes to this garbage contract you will be ruining the working conditions and pay for all future pilots as well as your careers when you come over to AC. Their are a lot of things that need to improve at AC and if this 17 year deal passes it will set the precitent for future negotiations for all companies in Canada.
[/quote]

I wish this 2% nonsense people keep fuming over would just go away.. it would happen if people just invested a little time in reading the MOS and actually calculating the numbers out. the 2% applies to all the side benefits (per diems, shoes, dry cleaning, hotel allowance for TPs, dental, massage, braces, parking, CDN/US per diems, etc. you know the stuff you have to negotiate anyways. the wages themselves vary in the blending back to table two.. so the raw pay is in the 4.5-7.5% for the most part with the max i think i saw about 12.5%. I worked my numbers between now and 2025 (any further would be meaningless in a comparison) in my specific case and see roughly $102,000 increase in my earnings factoring in the associated rise in max ESOP/DC contributions. thats without per diems, and using my annual blocking average without OT. The true earnings will be much higher. How that works out a pretty good deal as a post 2015 captain.. I was also due to be reduced off around this time next year on our current agreement so its another win there that isn't factored on the above calculations. When I weigh the odds of turning down this offer vs renegotiating in 2025 I need an extra 100k on top of this deal to break even plus extra for the risk I took on. I'm not going to see a 100k raise in 2025 as our top end rates already far outpace the rest of the regional industry.. so the lost earnings will continue to compound against me. Jazz is my end game, so Im banking on putting away these early earnings to continue to work in my favour.

Starting to work the pay rates back to where they should be is a first step, but I don't see any meaningful changes taking place until were negotiating as one bargaining unit, and taking in the ggn pilots is the first step in the process. I see the gains now as enough to push the deal through, but will look forward to hopefully extending the same offer to Sky Regional after this deal passes. There are good things coming down the pipe if we can see beyond this crappy year 1 FO pay, and accept that AC will be our customer for 17 years. Hell if you don't think any of this sounds good to you just vote yes and go to Air Canada with the new "flow" lol

[V1Vr]

I wish this 2% nonsense people keep fuming over would just go away.. it would happen if people just invested a little time in reading the MOS and actually calculating the numbers out. the 2% applies to all the side benefits (per diems, shoes, dry cleaning, hotel allowance for TPs, dental, massage, braces, parking, CDN/US per diems, etc. you know the stuff you have to negotiate anyways. the wages themselves vary in the blending back to table two.. so the raw pay is in the 4.5-7.5% for the most part with the max i think i saw about 12.5%. I worked my numbers between now and 2025 (any further would be meaningless in a comparison) in my specific case and see roughly $102,000 increase in my earnings factoring in the associated rise in max ESOP/DC contributions. thats without per diems, and using my annual blocking average without OT. The true earnings will be much higher. How that works out a pretty good deal as a post 2015 captain.. I was also due to be reduced off around this time next year on our current agreement so its another win there that isn't factored on the above calculations. When I weigh the odds of turning down this offer vs renegotiating in 2025 I need an extra 100k on top of this deal to break even plus extra for the risk I took on. I'm not going to see a 100k raise in 2025 as our top end rates already far outpace the rest of the regional industry.. so the lost earnings will continue to compound against me. Jazz is my end game, so Im banking on putting away these early earnings to continue to work in my favour.

Starting to work the pay rates back to where they should be is a first step, but I don't see any meaningful changes taking place until were negotiating as one bargaining unit, and taking in the ggn pilots is the first step in the process. I see the gains now as enough to push the deal through, but will look forward to hopefully extending the same offer to Sky Regional after this deal passes. There are good things coming down the pipe if we can see beyond this crappy year 1 FO pay, and accept that AC will be our customer for 17 years. Hell if you don't think any of this sounds good to you just vote yes and go to Air Canada with the new "flow" lol

If only sane people like you posted on the Facebook page.