17 year TA?

[LtDan]

Under what conditions will people say enough is enough.

Say this 17 year deal is signed. 3 years from now hiring stops, age 65 is now age 95 and no one moves. Now what?

What if in 3 years Calin comes to Jazz and says sorry, Sky grows unless you take more concessions, times are tight.

This deal could pass, a dictator somewhere in the world does something stupid, and hiring could stop in a few months. Calin gets what he wants, but not Jazz pilot's.

With your logic there snowcone, how will you feel under our current contract if the music stops tomorrow and you are stuck on the FO scale with no YOS carryover for the 10-15 years spent in the right seat, currently planned fleet reductions causing junior captains to slide back to the right seat ahead of you (especially if the fleet goes to MADUG as rouge repatriates flying/acpa protects jobs at mainline), how about losing on an opportunity to make an extra 50-100k in your pocket before 2025 with the status quo...

Id say enough is enough for me.. i've been content with the "b-scale" and made it work for me.. i had the option of SR/GGN and passed on the slightly higher starting wage because I saw value in having a real career here at Jazz or a great fallback if the AC plans fall through.. you don't get that else where (and that now includes Westjet). This 17 year contract is all gravy in my eyes. Stability for 17 years, senior guys know their DB pension stays in check, more fins for us, and "preferred partnership" or whatever you want to call it with AC is added protection in the next downturn.. id be afraid if I was as SR right now seeing what is presented to us. The writing is on the wall elsewhere.. If you don't like this deal when it passes go apply at SR and see how well it works out for you... I'll vote yes to DOH for any of you folks then too

[Rowdy]

It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.

[V1Vr]

It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.

YVR-ORD, DFW, SAN, YZF, YWG, DEN, PHX. YYC-IAH

All routes that I wouldn't even consider "regional" and suspect the A220 may show up on them.

[47north]

It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.

People don't understand the economics of the A220. Cheaper to run than a EMB-190 by far.

http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/m ... update.pdf

[Rowdy]

Yes the economics of the 220 are far superior to the 190. Which is a mainline machine and not a regional.

As V1VR demonstrated, we're sort of at a stretch with some of the CRJ routes for whats considered 'regional'. I see the crossover.

[rudder]

The entire AC fleet/commercial strategy is to lower CASM on all routes deploying appropriate gauge/frequency and next gen aircraft with new engine technologies or existing aircraft with densified seating.

That applies from the long haul 400+ seat markets all the way down to the Express 75 seat markets.

So AC will use a combination of Rouge/A220’s/Express next gen 76 seat jets to lower CASM on existing and new routes in the North American market where the max gauge is 145 seats.

Also affecting these fleet deployment decisions will be the commercial choice to offer J class inventory to match demand on a city pair.

[mbav8r]

It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.

I’ll take that bet Rowdy, what AC says to pacify groups and actually does are two different things, if language exist in the contract to use those aircraft as RRA, then you bet it will happen, I hope I don’t have to collect as that means we turned this down and have to see what’s behind door number two.
As for us costing pennies, I suggest you do some math, CASM is cost per available seat mile, in case you weren’t aware. I know, I know that was condescending as hell but my point is we are not pennies on the dollar, in fact in some cases we are more expensive.
Just take our wages and divide them by the average seats, when compared to mainline in some instances we are more expensive or right up there, I guarantee our CASM is right there with Rouge. We are already an expensive group and Jazz has to make a little profit, not to mention AC quietly made an announcement about some routes being repatriated, so thinking we could somehow turn this down and get more is quite naive.
All this talk about shortages and they need us, etc, etc. They don’t, they have another airline who could ramp up over the next six years.
Imagine plan b is Calin walks across the street to SR, he says no pilot on property will take a pay cut but here is the contract Jazz pilots turned down, all you have to do is say yes and it’s yours, what do you think they will say? Seriously ponder that, while you decide whether or not to gamble your job away, that’s what it is, a gamble.
As for Chorus, they have diversified the business and I’m sure would be quite happy to lease the airplanes to SR, stock would dip a little but eventually bounce back as they expand that business, Voyageur could expand with whatever airplanes Chorus can’t sell and we all get to start over at the bottom of some list.
Maybe we get to follow the work, maybe a new government repeals the legislation that says this, maybe 2025 we are just recovering from a recession, maybe the “No’s” are right, there is a little more, what’s your risk tolerance at this point in your career?
The other thing is, a deal doesn’t have to happen today, so maybe plan b is status quo until 2025, maybe the landscape is completely different in either direction, maybe a real shortage or maybe not, gains now could be a good thing if things go the other direction.
I don’t understand where this mentality of the economy will keep on trucking without some type of hiccup comes from, that possibility and the fact in 5 years the retirements will slow down again, that should cause one to reevaluate your sense of leverage.
Good luck in two days, I for one am hoping that the no’s are just the vocal minority and they don’t get to find out what plan b is, I like plan a.

[47north]

It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.

I’ll take that bet Rowdy, what AC says to pacify groups and actually does are two different things, if language exist in the contract to use those aircraft as RRA, then you bet it will happen, I hope I don’t have to collect as that means we turned this down and have to see what’s behind door number two.
As for us costing pennies, I suggest you do some math, CASM is cost per available seat mile, in case you weren’t aware. I know, I know that was condescending as hell but my point is we are not pennies on the dollar, in fact in some cases we are more expensive.
Just take our wages and divide them by the average seats, when compared to mainline in some instances we are more expensive or right up there, I guarantee our CASM is right there with Rouge. We are already an expensive group and Jazz has to make a little profit, not to mention AC quietly made an announcement about some routes being repatriated, so thinking we could somehow turn this down and get more is quite naive.
All this talk about shortages and they need us, etc, etc. They don’t, they have another airline who could ramp up over the next six years.
Imagine plan b is Calin walks across the street to SR, he says no pilot on property will take a pay cut but here is the contract Jazz pilots turned down, all you have to do is say yes and it’s yours, what do you think they will say? Seriously ponder that, while you decide whether or not to gamble your job away, that’s what it is, a gamble.
As for Chorus, they have diversified the business and I’m sure would be quite happy to lease the airplanes to SR, stock would dip a little but eventually bounce back as they expand that business, Voyageur could expand with whatever airplanes Chorus can’t sell and we all get to start over at the bottom of some list.
Maybe we get to follow the work, maybe a new government repeals the legislation that says this, maybe 2025 we are just recovering from a recession, maybe the “No’s” are right, there is a little more, what’s your risk tolerance at this point in your career?
The other thing is, a deal doesn’t have to happen today, so maybe plan b is status quo until 2025, maybe the landscape is completely different in either direction, maybe a real shortage or maybe not, gains now could be a good thing if things go the other direction.
I don’t understand where this mentality of the economy will keep on trucking without some type of hiccup comes from, that possibility and the fact in 5 years the retirements will slow down again, that should cause one to reevaluate your sense of leverage.
Good luck in two days, I for one am hoping that the no’s are just the vocal minority and they don’t get to find out what plan b is, I like plan a.

+1

[rudder]

Under the terms of the tentative ammended CPA with AC, CHR will make very little off the AC CPA. The vast majority of the revenue and almost all of the profit will be derived from Chorus Aviation Capital (leasing).

Chorus does not care who they lease to for the Express fleet. All they care is that the portfolio of leased Express aircraft grows.

Leased aircraft also are not represented by unions. Just saying....

[LtDan]

It was stated many times that the A220 and MAX wouldn't be used as regional aircraft, but as supplements to the retirements of the 767's and older A320s.

I bet if this passes, the RRA won't happen. Anyone want to wager an adult beverage on that? We cost AC pennies to operate regionally in comparison to their pilots. Even with the four year flat pay scheme. We're still cheaper. They may up gauge some routes when we simply cant staff them though. Which may be their contingency plan for the apparent pilot shortage.

I'm curious either way to see how this is going to pan out. I'm fairly certain a vote either direction will be used against us.

I’ll take that bet Rowdy, what AC says to pacify groups and actually does are two different things, if language exist in the contract to use those aircraft as RRA, then you bet it will happen, I hope I don’t have to collect as that means we turned this down and have to see what’s behind door number two.
As for us costing pennies, I suggest you do some math, CASM is cost per available seat mile, in case you weren’t aware. I know, I know that was condescending as hell but my point is we are not pennies on the dollar, in fact in some cases we are more expensive.
Just take our wages and divide them by the average seats, when compared to mainline in some instances we are more expensive or right up there, I guarantee our CASM is right there with Rouge. We are already an expensive group and Jazz has to make a little profit, not to mention AC quietly made an announcement about some routes being repatriated, so thinking we could somehow turn this down and get more is quite naive.
All this talk about shortages and they need us, etc, etc. They don’t, they have another airline who could ramp up over the next six years.
Imagine plan b is Calin walks across the street to SR, he says no pilot on property will take a pay cut but here is the contract Jazz pilots turned down, all you have to do is say yes and it’s yours, what do you think they will say? Seriously ponder that, while you decide whether or not to gamble your job away, that’s what it is, a gamble.
As for Chorus, they have diversified the business and I’m sure would be quite happy to lease the airplanes to SR, stock would dip a little but eventually bounce back as they expand that business, Voyageur could expand with whatever airplanes Chorus can’t sell and we all get to start over at the bottom of some list.
Maybe we get to follow the work, maybe a new government repeals the legislation that says this, maybe 2025 we are just recovering from a recession, maybe the “No’s” are right, there is a little more, what’s your risk tolerance at this point in your career?
The other thing is, a deal doesn’t have to happen today, so maybe plan b is status quo until 2025, maybe the landscape is completely different in either direction, maybe a real shortage or maybe not, gains now could be a good thing if things go the other direction.
I don’t understand where this mentality of the economy will keep on trucking without some type of hiccup comes from, that possibility and the fact in 5 years the retirements will slow down again, that should cause one to reevaluate your sense of leverage.
Good luck in two days, I for one am hoping that the no’s are just the vocal minority and they don’t get to find out what plan b is, I like plan a.

+1

[rudder]

Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.

[Yycjetdriver]

Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.

The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.

[V1Vr]

Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.

The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.

He's not wrong. All those airlines own their flying. And unless there is a force majeure event or they go bankrupt, they'll all still be around in 2035.

For anyone to think that locking in a contract for a contract carrier until 2035 means you won't have opportunities to make improvements is naive. Jazz is just over 3 years into a locked cost neutral 10 year agreement and look at what is happening.

The second an actual pilot shortage manifests? Opener. Sky Regional maybe coming on board? Opener. Company wants to bypass pay people who are slated to leave for AC? Opener. New type on property (2026??)? Opener. Any time the company needs something, if anyone thinks being locked in is a BAD thing, you need to give your head a shake. What's that company? You want to give new hires raises? Well if we let you do that, we want raises for everyone. Oh what's that, you don't want to? Ok see ya in 15 years, and good luck hiring anyone in the mean time.

Nothing is certain, but just shouting from the rooftops "VOTE NO THIS DEAL IS TERRIBLE" without any alternate ideas is dumb. If you are informed and vote no because you can't get around something in it like the GGN integration or 17 years that's great. It's your right. But to vote no in *hope* there might be more, which I doubt there is .. is also naive.

[KenoraPilot]

Which pilot groups in Canada have de facto employment guarantees until 2035 notwithstanding a force majeure event?

Air Canada - probably

WestJet - probably

Air Transat - possibly/probably

Sunwing - possibly/probably

CargoJet - possibly

Morningstar - possibly

Porter - possibly

First Air/CDN North - possibly

Bearskin/Calmair - possibly

Jazz - probably *(assuming TA is ratified)

Georgian - no *(unless moving to AC or Jazz)

Skyregional - no


Obviously if a pilot group owns perpetual and exclusive rights to the work it performs in a consistently positively performing segment of the air industry has the least risk. Any pilot group who’s employment is predicated on a term services contract is periodically exposed to employment risk.

The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.

I know this TA as got everyone a little wound up, but no need for insults or accusations. Everyone as the right to vote the way their conscious moves them and everyones situation is different. I have an assumption a portion (looking at you yycjetdriver) of the people discussing this don't even work at Jazz.....

[KenoraPilot]

.

[rudder]

The only guarantees in aviation are, there are no guarantees.
You can’t just make up facts and statements to justify being a sellout.

Job security is just one factor amongst many in making employment or collective agreement choices. Where it ranks in priority is up to each individual. Some pilots will pick an employer strictly for job security prospects. Others for metal. Others for $$. Others for lifestyle.

But the fact is that the pilots from Worldways, Nationair, Jetsgo, Canada3000, Skyservice, Kelowna Flightcraft, and others did not have it. For some, things worked out better after the closing of their employer. For others, not so much.

The pilots at CDN got lucky as politics forced their company in to a merger rather than a possible appointment at the bankruptcy court. It is looking like a potential good outcome for the Georgian pilots despite working for a questionable employer. The story does not usually have a happy ending.

[truedude]

Under the terms of the tentative ammended CPA with AC, CHR will make very little off the AC CPA. The vast majority of the revenue and almost all of the profit will be derived from Chorus Aviation Capital (leasing).

Chorus does not care who they lease to for the Express fleet. All they care is that the portfolio of leased Express aircraft grows.

Leased aircraft also are not represented by unions. Just saying....

Air Canada's equity stake is contingent on Jazz pilots ratifying the TA. I think that is telling. Air Canada does not need to prop up Chorus leasing division, nor does Air Canada require chorus to source aircraft, as is evident.

[flashheart]

Pilots are the biggest bunch of pussies I’ve seen

Let me get this straight:

- retirements
- world wide airline growth (read about what Boeing has to say about future requirements)
- already on a 10 years contract

To lock into a contract till 2035
- with no raise. Sorry 2% is not a raise. Better hope for minimal inflation!
- new hires making less than B1900 FOs

Man it’s no wonder Canada is an international joke

[C-GGGQ]

.

For anyone to think that locking in a contract for a contract carrier until 2035 means you won't have opportunities to make improvements is naive. Jazz is just over 3 years into a locked cost neutral 10 year agreement and look at what is happening.

The second an actual pilot shortage manifests? Opener. Sky Regional maybe coming on board? Opener. Company wants to bypass pay people who are slated to leave for AC? Opener. New type on property (2026??)? Opener. Any time the company needs something, if anyone thinks being locked in is a BAD thing, you need to give your head a shake. What's that company? You want to give new hires raises? Well if we let you do that, we want raises for everyone. Oh what's that, you don't want to? Ok see ya in 15 years, and good luck hiring anyone in the mean time.

If you can just reopen the contract whenever, then it's not job security. The second Air Canada thinks they can do better? Opener. Recession? Opener.

[V1Vr]

.

For anyone to think that locking in a contract for a contract carrier until 2035 means you won't have opportunities to make improvements is naive. Jazz is just over 3 years into a locked cost neutral 10 year agreement and look at what is happening.

The second an actual pilot shortage manifests? Opener. Sky Regional maybe coming on board? Opener. Company wants to bypass pay people who are slated to leave for AC? Opener. New type on property (2026??)? Opener. Any time the company needs something, if anyone thinks being locked in is a BAD thing, you need to give your head a shake. What's that company? You want to give new hires raises? Well if we let you do that, we want raises for everyone. Oh what's that, you don't want to? Ok see ya in 15 years, and good luck hiring anyone in the mean time.

If you can just reopen the contract whenever, then it's not job security. The second Air Canada thinks they can do better? Opener. Recession? Opener.

That's not how it works. The contract is locked unless both parties agree to open for specific reasons. And only specific sections. If they don't agree then you revert to whatever your current agreement is. The 17 years will protect the down side. A recession will not open a contract. A bankruptcy could but that would happen regardless of whatever contract anyone has.