17 year TA?

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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

flashheart wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:41 pm Pilots are the biggest bunch of pussies I’ve seen

Let me get this straight:

- retirements
- world wide airline growth (read about what Boeing has to say about future requirements)
- already on a 10 years contract

To lock into a contract till 2035
- with no raise. Sorry 2% is not a raise. Better hope for minimal inflation!
- new hires making less than B1900 FOs

Man it’s no wonder Canada is an international joke
No big growth yet and no retirements yet on a large scale. If that does happen there will be plenty of opportunity to make more gains. Anyone who thinks otherwise is close mind and/or just naive.
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Rowdy
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

You know what would pass in a heartbeat?

Change the terms to this:

CPA/contract to10 years from today. 2029. WITH guaranteed cost openers at 3 year intervals.
Complete removal of the B scale. Only the A scale. No ifs ands or buts. No blended bs.
Direct YOS carryover. Not the farce they have offered. Return the effective dates to our DOH, not upgrade date too.
AC guaranteeing The PML. Not the hokey 'maybe sorta kinda as we need and as our standards may apply' nonsense. Take 50% from Jazz. Guarantee it. No ifs ands or buts, by seniority, give us a guarantee WITH something that'll hold you to it. i.e.; if we don't take x,y,z we'll throw money/aircraft/slaves/infinite netflix subscriptions your way etc.
REMOVE the *asterix pertaining to US CPA flying at present rates. I'm not gonna screw over my US counterparts.
Guarantee GGN is no longer a CPA partner and that AC won't start up another one six months from now.

Bring me that deal, and I'll vote yes. Today. Tomorrow. Whenever.
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flashheart
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by flashheart »

Make more gains AFTER you sign a contract?

Get this man away from his pen!!

Pilot shortage:

Boeing estimates the need for an addtional 790,000 new pilots by 2037. Almost coincided with 2035, hmmm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarc ... add215492
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

flashheart wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:10 pm Make more gains AFTER you sign a contract?

Get this man away from his pen!!

Pilot shortage:

Boeing estimates the need for an addtional 790,000 new pilots by 2037. Almost coincided with 2035, hmmm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarc ... add215492
So what, you think when a company can't find pilots they're just gonna shrug their shoulders?

You also realize Jazz is only 3 years into a ten year LOCKED NO STRIKE COST NEUTRAL contract?

Right. You can never make gains when in a locked contract, ever.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:07 pm You know what would pass in a heartbeat?

Change the terms to this:

CPA/contract to10 years from today. 2029. WITH guaranteed cost openers at 3 year intervals.
Complete removal of the B scale. Only the A scale. No ifs ands or buts. No blended bs.
Direct YOS carryover. Not the farce they have offered. Return the effective dates to our DOH, not upgrade date too.
AC guaranteeing The PML. Not the hokey 'maybe sorta kinda as we need and as our standards may apply' nonsense. Take 50% from Jazz. Guarantee it. No ifs ands or buts, by seniority, give us a guarantee WITH something that'll hold you to it. i.e.; if we don't take x,y,z we'll throw money/aircraft/slaves/infinite netflix subscriptions your way etc.
REMOVE the *asterix pertaining to US CPA flying at present rates. I'm not gonna screw over my US counterparts.
Guarantee GGN is no longer a CPA partner and that AC won't start up another one six months from now.

Bring me that deal, and I'll vote yes. Today. Tomorrow. Whenever.
Can I have a Ferrari with that?

Talk about greed and unrealistic expectations.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:07 pm You know what would pass in a heartbeat?

Change the terms to this:

CPA/contract to10 years from today. 2029. WITH guaranteed cost openers at 3 year intervals.
Complete removal of the B scale. Only the A scale. No ifs ands or buts. No blended bs.
Direct YOS carryover. Not the farce they have offered. Return the effective dates to our DOH, not upgrade date too.
AC guaranteeing The PML. Not the hokey 'maybe sorta kinda as we need and as our standards may apply' nonsense. Take 50% from Jazz. Guarantee it. No ifs ands or buts, by seniority, give us a guarantee WITH something that'll hold you to it. i.e.; if we don't take x,y,z we'll throw money/aircraft/slaves/infinite netflix subscriptions your way etc.
REMOVE the *asterix pertaining to US CPA flying at present rates. I'm not gonna screw over my US counterparts.
Guarantee GGN is no longer a CPA partner and that AC won't start up another one six months from now.

Bring me that deal, and I'll vote yes. Today. Tomorrow. Whenever.
How about this. If this fails, you throw your hand up and volunteer for the negotiations committee. See if you can do better. Have fun.

Also FYI all post 2015 CA upgrade dates will be DOH if this passes including yours.
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Rowdy
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

V1Vr wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:17 pm
Can I have a Ferrari with that?

Talk about greed and unrealistic expectations.
Greedy and unrealistic? There are 700 pilots senior to me with that pay/yos/etc. How am I being greedy for wanting what my coworkers have. How am I being greedy and unrealistic when our neighbours to the south are getting that?

Please stop facilitating this ridiculous race to poverty.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:39 pm
V1Vr wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:17 pm
Can I have a Ferrari with that?

Talk about greed and unrealistic expectations.
Greedy and unrealistic? There are 700 pilots senior to me with that pay/yos/etc. How am I being greedy for wanting what my coworkers have. How am I being greedy and unrealistic when our neighbours to the south are getting that?

Please stop facilitating this ridiculous race to poverty.
Want to take the right seat for 10+ years like many of them did too for that 1:1 YOS? Or stick with the quick sub 2 year left seat you got instead? :roll:

You know what else our neighbors to the south have? An ATPL/1500 rule to fly at an airline. Also take a look at some of those regionals everyone likes to compare hourly rates to and tell me how many of them have 1:1 YOS. While you're at it, take a look at their contracts. Per diem, sick time, medical coverage deductions, pension, working rules etc. and tell me who's really racing to the bottom

In 3 years you'll be on the same pay scale as every pre 2015 pilot. Top out at 17 years and know you have a job in 2026.

Perspective.
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Rowdy
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

V1Vr wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:18 pm Also FYI all post 2015 CA upgrade dates will be DOH if this passes including yours.
I have scrutinized the MOS for the last week. Over and over and I cannot for the life of me, see anything even hinting to that.

The YOS 'credit' is for FO to captain, starting at year four. No other credit carried. AND only on the proviso that they hold an ATPL during that time. Which means, not a single one of the college folk hired will get credit for YOS as an FO. They'll either upgrade before it applies or be gone to AC. That also means for me, my year and a half at the company as an FO means zip. I also see nothing pertaining to the date being moved. So, someone hired in november and then upgraded in march, would lose 4 months at the respective yearly hourly rate.

Also, it's not 1;1 YOS. as per your next post.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 pm
V1Vr wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:18 pm Also FYI all post 2015 CA upgrade dates will be DOH if this passes including yours.
I have scrutinized the MOS for the last week. Over and over and I cannot for the life of me, see anything even hinting to that.

The YOS 'credit' is for FO to captain, starting at year four. No other credit carried. AND only on the proviso that they hold an ATPL during that time. Which means, not a single one of the college folk hired will get credit for YOS as an FO. They'll either upgrade before it applies or be gone to AC. That also means for me, my year and a half at the company as an FO means zip. I also see nothing pertaining to the date being moved. So, someone hired in november and then upgraded in march, would lose 4 months at the respective yearly hourly rate.

Also, it's not 1;1 YOS. as per your next post.
YOS entry point. YOS will continue to accrue on your date of hire. Maybe if you made it to a road show or watched a road show video/Q and A you might have known that. Not everything is in the MOS, take a look at the documents uploaded to the alpa site. The MOS is written to cover as smuch as possible with as much detail as possible but some things got clarified after the fact and that is one of them. YOS as a Captain will be removed from the contract if this goes through and all current post 2015 Captains will have their YOS adjusted and dates moved accordingly.

Also take a look at some of the new Captains in YVR. Just over two years, and College hire to left seat. Three years should be more than enough for anyone to get an ATPL. It's a non issue. Why should anyone accrue YOS as a Captain if they can't even be a Captain?

If you were a year and a half at the company you'll step to your next YOS CA 6 months early. You are looking at it backwards. No one is going to loose anything. There was one guy who had his CA effective date in the beginning of Feb, and his anniversary date the end of Feb. He'll step now to whatever his next YOS is on his CA effective date and then the next one a few weeks later. 11 months early. How is that bad?

Seriously dude if you dont' know this you have done yourself a disservice by not watching the road shows. Go online and watch. If after you still think no, and want to vote that way then I respect that. But it sounds like you have only been listening to crew room chatter, the FB page and this site. Go make your own decision based on actual facts and Q and A. YUL and YYC are both good videos. I watched them both.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

From the Q and A #4 posted today.
Similar to the Contract Training Pilot section, is there any
other MOS/tentative agreement language that has not
been disclosed?

There is nothing specifically excluded from the settlement. The
document attempts to capture spirit and intent. It is important to
realize that the union committee and the Company spent months
at the table discussing the issues and developing complete
understanding of the principles. As such, the MOS can’t possibly
convey all of the nuances of what was discussed and agreed. This
is why it is critical that the Negotiating Committee also participate
in the implementation phase.
If the MOS is ratified, the parties will need to reconvene to draft
the actual Collective Agreement language which captures the
principles (which could also take months for a complex
settlement).
One other thing that was agreed to but not in the MOS. Back pay to January 1. Also that if you get PFO'd again it wouldn't count to the max %10 turn down rate.
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Rowdy
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

I've avoided the crew room banter and the mess that is FB, and as always I take everything from avcanada with a grain of salt.

I've read the MOS in its entirety. I've scrutinized the uploads to the ALPA site. I've watched the road show Q&As. The more I dig, the more skeptical I get.

Unless I see it written and signed on, to me, it means as much as a rumour in the crew room. Clarification with the company should happen before the MOS is presented to the pilot group and voted on. Not after. 'spirit' and 'intent' can change quickly.
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mbav8r
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by mbav8r »

Rowdy wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:31 pm I've avoided the crew room banter and the mess that is FB, and as always I take everything from avcanada with a grain of salt.

I've read the MOS in its entirety. I've scrutinized the uploads to the ALPA site. I've watched the road show Q&As. The more I dig, the more skeptical I get.

Unless I see it written and signed on, to me, it means as much as a rumour in the crew room. Clarification with the company should happen before the MOS is presented to the pilot group and voted on. Not after. 'spirit' and 'intent' can change quickly.
Rowdy,
While I have no doubt you scrutinized the information, I do have doubts you did your homework.
Your demands, for lack of a better description are unrealistic, can you point to any other CPA provider that has YOS for upgrades, how about you list the airlines in Canada that do and we’ll go from there.
What’s your plan b, how do you propose we attain your demands, just saying voting no will do it does nothing to make me feel better about it.
What’s the plan, we don’t have any so called leverage, would you be completely fine with continuing on the current contract and seeing what happens in 5 years? Seriously that’s the likely outcome of a no vote, good luck with your application at SR, you’ll be behind me in the process. If we vote this down, I will take my 13 years at Jazz and 25 years of experience to them, DEC now sounds better to me than your plan of hoping for the best.
Guess we’ll find out tomorrow,
Signed concerned Jazz pilot
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

Well said.

If this goes down I too will be one of the first to make my exit. 2025 won't be so good for Jazz.
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truedude
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude »

V1Vr wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:19 am Well said.

If this goes down I too will be one of the first to make my exit. 2025 won't be so good for Jazz.
With a crystal ball like yours, wonder if you could share any stock tips... . :lol: :lol:
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by mbav8r »

truedude wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:22 am
V1Vr wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:19 am Well said.

If this goes down I too will be one of the first to make my exit. 2025 won't be so good for Jazz.
With a crystal ball like yours, wonder if you could share any stock tips... . :lol: :lol:
I will, sell your Chorus shares the second you hear the contract was voted down, if it passes buy some and AC while you’re at it.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by rudder »

Imagine if you were the only game in town how much bargaining leverage you would have.....

Oh, wait. The AC and WJ pilots own exclusive rights to their flying yet both ended up with de facto b scale operations at Rouge and Swoop courtesy of arbitrations foisted on them by the Minister of Labour. Both groups stuck with 2% raises.

Many are howling at the wind about hopes to achieve monumental gains. It will not happen. Small gains at every opportunity are more likely. That is how ACPA has fought its way back from the 2010 arbitrated collective agreement.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

truedude wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:22 am
V1Vr wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:19 am Well said.

If this goes down I too will be one of the first to make my exit. 2025 won't be so good for Jazz.
With a crystal ball like yours, wonder if you could share any stock tips... . :lol: :lol:
SPCL gonna be HUUUGE.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by daedalusx »

rudder wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:33 am Imagine if you were the only game in town how much bargaining leverage you would have.....

Oh, wait. The AC and WJ pilots own exclusive rights to their flying yet both ended up with de facto b scale operations at Rouge and Swoop courtesy of arbitrations foisted on them by the Minister of Labour. Both groups stuck with 2% raises.

Many are howling at the wind about hopes to achieve monumental gains. It will not happen. Small gains at every opportunity are more likely. That is how ACPA has fought its way back from the 2010 arbitrated collective agreement.
With the horrible conditions "negotiated" by ALPA with both this current JAZZ MOS4 and the Swoop disaster, AC pilots would be utterly insane to let ALPA in. ACPA even with all its flaws, has shown itself to be much more effective and capable.
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V1Vr
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by V1Vr »

daedalusx wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:12 am
rudder wrote: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:33 am Imagine if you were the only game in town how much bargaining leverage you would have.....

Oh, wait. The AC and WJ pilots own exclusive rights to their flying yet both ended up with de facto b scale operations at Rouge and Swoop courtesy of arbitrations foisted on them by the Minister of Labour. Both groups stuck with 2% raises.

Many are howling at the wind about hopes to achieve monumental gains. It will not happen. Small gains at every opportunity are more likely. That is how ACPA has fought its way back from the 2010 arbitrated collective agreement.
With the horrible conditions "negotiated" by ALPA with both this current JAZZ MOS4 and the Swoop disaster, AC pilots would be utterly insane to let ALPA in. ACPA even with all its flaws, has shown itself to be much more effective and capable.
It's ok, ALPA doesn't want AC anymore. Not after the shit their union leaders pulled at the ALPA Canada Board meeting/elections.
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