Upgrade timelines
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Upgrade timelines
I’ve been asked this question a few times from some pilots that I mentor and I keep forgetting to ask the group here. Since I only know the encore scoop on this, I need info on the jazz side.
Flight instructor who has about 1000 hours and has to choose between encore and jazz (because these lucky bastards get interviews with this kind of experience, or lack thereof). If he comes to encore, with the way the matrix works, if he wants a Calgary skipper spot, it will take him about 2 and a half (or so) years from his day one until his line check is all done and he makes skipper mula.
What’s the current timeline at jazz for someone with this type of experience who wants a skipper spot (any type) but has to be in YYC?
Ps. I’m not mad or anything about the lack of experience these new hires have, the terrible attitudes, the lack of respect to their elders, and their obnoxiously bad radio work and situational awareness. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not whining about it at all.
Flight instructor who has about 1000 hours and has to choose between encore and jazz (because these lucky bastards get interviews with this kind of experience, or lack thereof). If he comes to encore, with the way the matrix works, if he wants a Calgary skipper spot, it will take him about 2 and a half (or so) years from his day one until his line check is all done and he makes skipper mula.
What’s the current timeline at jazz for someone with this type of experience who wants a skipper spot (any type) but has to be in YYC?
Ps. I’m not mad or anything about the lack of experience these new hires have, the terrible attitudes, the lack of respect to their elders, and their obnoxiously bad radio work and situational awareness. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not whining about it at all.
Re: Upgrade timelines
Is this even a question? Jazz. By far. Not only will he likely be skipper way faster in YYC, he'll have the opportunity to be skip likely in Montreal first and can commute if he so chooses. Encore pay may look like it's more but your total compensation and lifestyle is much better at Jazz. Not to mention likely off to AC in two years now if he wants vs who knows how many years before "flowing" to Swoop.
YYC is currently a bit over two years but if AC gobbles 250 pilots this year like we expect I imagine that will drop.
No offense, I see you are at Encore. But with the new WJ contract and now the new Jazz contract I don't see any reason for anyone to go to Encore any longer.
YYC is currently a bit over two years but if AC gobbles 250 pilots this year like we expect I imagine that will drop.
No offense, I see you are at Encore. But with the new WJ contract and now the new Jazz contract I don't see any reason for anyone to go to Encore any longer.
Re: Upgrade timelines
I guess the real answer though is, whoever offers a job first.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1983
- Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am
Re: Upgrade timelines
Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
Re: Upgrade timelines
So with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hoursgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
Re: Upgrade timelines
Actually, in some cases a pilot with 250 hours will get to be an F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC.
Brand new to the industry operating 4 hour jet sectors with layovers in SFO and SAN.
Welcome to aviation in the 2020’s
Re: Upgrade timelines
Well there is still the ATPL hurdle for the college grads. The flight instructor will likely have all his PIC time but the grad is going to need PICUS if he jumps straight to the regional and with the upcoming AC flow, the training dept is likely to be swamped with line indoc. I know some captains will be checked to give PICUS time but for anyone shy of their PIC time by a significant margin, it could be quite painful to get the numbers.
58
Re: Upgrade timelines
3 years should be more than enough time for anyone who even low motivation to get their ATPL.Outlaw58 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:31 amWell there is still the ATPL hurdle for the college grads. The flight instructor will likely have all his PIC time but the grad is going to need PICUS if he jumps straight to the regional and with the upcoming AC flow, the training dept is likely to be swamped with line indoc. I know some captains will be checked to give PICUS time but for anyone shy of their PIC time by a significant margin, it could be quite painful to get the numbers.
58
Re: Upgrade timelines
If I were in that position, I wouldn’t be relying on PICUS at all the get the PIC time. They will have to go out and buy their hours on a local airport. Some have been granted LOAs so they can work elsewhere for a short time as well. If we are short staffed, that is less likely too.
Seems like a flawed system where they have to go spend money on a 172 to get PIC time. Not sure how relevant that is to operating at an airline.
Seems like a flawed system where they have to go spend money on a 172 to get PIC time. Not sure how relevant that is to operating at an airline.
Re: Upgrade timelines
Well this is my military experience speaking but you can't really explain experience until you painted yourself in a corner and don't have the luxury of a fully functioning well-equipped aircraft capable of handling any and all weather conditions, a captain or copilot to bounce your ideas on, ATC that sees you on radar and/or direct comms with your maintenance/dispatch and have only yourself to rely on to get yourself out of said corner.47north wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:52 am If I were in that position, I wouldn’t be relying on PICUS at all the get the PIC time. They will have to go out and buy their hours on a local airport. Some have been granted LOAs so they can work elsewhere for a short time as well. If we are short staffed, that is less likely too.
Seems like a flawed system where they have to go spend money on a 172 to get PIC time. Not sure how relevant that is to operating at an airline.
"Experience is something you don't acquire until a fraction of a second after needing it."
58
Re: Upgrade timelines
+1Outlaw58 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:08 amWell this is my military experience speaking but you can't really explain experience until you painted yourself in a corner and don't have the luxury of a fully functioning well-equipped aircraft capable of handling any and all weather conditions, a captain or copilot to bounce your ideas on, ATC that sees you on radar and/or direct comms with your maintenance/dispatch and have only yourself to rely on to get yourself out of said corner.47north wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:52 am If I were in that position, I wouldn’t be relying on PICUS at all the get the PIC time. They will have to go out and buy their hours on a local airport. Some have been granted LOAs so they can work elsewhere for a short time as well. If we are short staffed, that is less likely too.
Seems like a flawed system where they have to go spend money on a 172 to get PIC time. Not sure how relevant that is to operating at an airline.
"Experience is something you don't acquire until a fraction of a second after needing it."
58
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1983
- Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am
Re: Upgrade timelines
The shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.av8ts wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 amSo with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hoursgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.
When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.
So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
Re: Upgrade timelines
Highest paid skipper at AC last year made just over half a million $ and worked about half a month at most every month. So worked about the same as you, and made as much as 5 you’s, if I were to gander a guess. Mind you, I currently get paid trash for what I do but love my schedule, so I’m not really one to talk.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pmThe shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.av8ts wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 amSo with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hoursgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.
When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.
So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
Re: Upgrade timelines
I know, that PFO letter really sucksgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pmThe shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.av8ts wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 amSo with a 1000 hours the pilot will get to be a F/O on a Q400 or Rj then in 2 years has a 90% chance of a job with AC. I wish there was “shit” opportunities like that when I had a 1000 hoursgoingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am Given the recent happenings at both sides, pretty sad options. AC and Jazz with lifestyle and movement is better than Swoop and stagnation with a management team that hates pilots. But that's like picking the smaller bucket of poop. It's still all shit.
I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.
When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.
So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1983
- Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am
Re: Upgrade timelines
So everyone who joins a regional airline as a 1000 hr instructor is going to eventually top out at half a million dollars? Or is that just a one off example at the top of the list who worked a bunch of overtime?MrTurbine wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:07 pmHighest paid skipper at AC last year made just over half a million $ and worked about half a month at most every month. So worked about the same as you, and made as much as 5 you’s, if I were to gander a guess. Mind you, I currently get paid trash for what I do but love my schedule, so I’m not really one to talk.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pmThe shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.
I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.
When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.
So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
Also the way the contracts are going, every one a bit less than before, I bet that those joining now will never see the half million dollar T4s. The CRJ 200s used to be flown by mainline pilots at mainline rates. Now they're making 37,000/yr. Do you really think that in 30 years a wide body captain will make the same they are making now?
And no, I didn't get a PFO. I just couldn't justify the pay cut.
Re: Upgrade timelines
There is some truth to this. My understanding as to why, businessmen have become more ruthless while pilots now more than ever are happy to stab each other in the back to chase metal.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:24 pmSo everyone who joins a regional airline as a 1000 hr instructor is going to eventually top out at half a million dollars? Or is that just a one off example at the top of the list who worked a bunch of overtime?MrTurbine wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:07 pmHighest paid skipper at AC last year made just over half a million $ and worked about half a month at most every month. So worked about the same as you, and made as much as 5 you’s, if I were to gander a guess. Mind you, I currently get paid trash for what I do but love my schedule, so I’m not really one to talk.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:48 pm
The shit opportunities I'm referring to are the opportunity to make poverty wages and still need to buy pic time so you're even eligible for upgrade.
I couldn't care less if it leads to Air Canada, their starting pay sucks too.
When I had 500-1000 hours I was making more than a first year Jazz FO and I was flying right seat in a King Air. First year captain at that company paid more than the 3rd year at Air Canada. Oh, and Monday to Thursday schedule, average 9 hour duty days.
So yes, I think 37 grand a year with a crap low seniority schedule and the "90% maybe" of making 55 grand a year with an equally crap low seniority schedule is a shit deal. Plus you have to live in one of Canada's most expensive cities.
Also the way the contracts are going, every one a bit less than before, I bet that those joining now will never see the half million dollar T4s. The CRJ 200s used to be flown by mainline pilots at mainline rates. Now they're making 37,000/yr. Do you really think that in 30 years a wide body captain will make the same they are making now?
And no, I didn't get a PFO. I just couldn't justify the pay cut.
However, It’s not one off, there’s a LOT of folk in the majors that see 200-350 k with not too much extra hustle. So 400 to half a Mil is not that far off for an OT hor.
I mean in the regional, I see a majority of skips who average 140-190 k with decent amount of hustle. So for shit pay, I think that’s pretty good actually.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:14 am
Re: Upgrade timelines
I think the jazz guys and gals are getting the sh$& end of the stick.
If you think Aviation is the only industry getting squeezed by ruthless CEO’s think again.
It’s a societal problem .. not just an aviation problem.
TC, ATAC etc etc are entities perpetuating the cycle of BS. Alpa is looking out for its own interests and the average interest of Joe Schmo and (m Picking the most favorable option out of : crap, crappiest and least crappy .
If you think Aviation is the only industry getting squeezed by ruthless CEO’s think again.
It’s a societal problem .. not just an aviation problem.
TC, ATAC etc etc are entities perpetuating the cycle of BS. Alpa is looking out for its own interests and the average interest of Joe Schmo and (m Picking the most favorable option out of : crap, crappiest and least crappy .
Re: Upgrade timelines
What does "ALPA looking out for it's intrests" mean? We are all ALPA.GhostRider6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 pm I think the jazz guys and gals are getting the sh$& end of the stick.
If you think Aviation is the only industry getting squeezed by ruthless CEO’s think again.
It’s a societal problem .. not just an aviation problem.
TC, ATAC etc etc are entities perpetuating the cycle of BS. Alpa is looking out for its own interests and the average interest of Joe Schmo and (m Picking the most favorable option out of : crap, crappiest and least crappy .
You know pilots from Jazz negotiated this, right? ALPA didn't send in some cronies from "head office" to do the bidding for us.
Re: Upgrade timelines
% true. People need to stop blaming alpa for everything. They are just a resource association that we pay a lot of money to. The scumbags are inbred. Mind you I’m all for alpa at WEN, but I’ve seen it go south in other places. All depends on the reps at the company. Not the association itself. Much good can come from it, if it is used properly. Just need the right people running it.V1Vr wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:31 pmWhat does "ALPA looking out for it's intrests" mean? We are all ALPA.GhostRider6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:28 pm I think the jazz guys and gals are getting the sh$& end of the stick.
If you think Aviation is the only industry getting squeezed by ruthless CEO’s think again.
It’s a societal problem .. not just an aviation problem.
TC, ATAC etc etc are entities perpetuating the cycle of BS. Alpa is looking out for its own interests and the average interest of Joe Schmo and (m Picking the most favorable option out of : crap, crappiest and least crappy .
You know pilots from Jazz negotiated this, right? ALPA didn't send in some cronies from "head office" to do the bidding for us.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:14 am
Re: Upgrade timelines
Do the members of the MEC not work for Jazz?
Do they not have vested interests as well?
I’m not blaming anyone! Where did I blame alpa exactly? I’m saying alpa probably took the least of several crappy deals where there was the most to gain .. for its interests and it’s members.
Whenever I’m told to sign an agreement under pressure and quickly with little time to really think ... I start asking questions.. Ultimately, that’s when I slow down..
But I am saying things like this are a symptom of a overall global issue called corporate greed. Past history shows this..
If you also noticed I’m not bashing jazz.. I’m actually saying “ lay-off” to the jazz bashers.
Yeesh!!!
Do they not have vested interests as well?
I’m not blaming anyone! Where did I blame alpa exactly? I’m saying alpa probably took the least of several crappy deals where there was the most to gain .. for its interests and it’s members.
Whenever I’m told to sign an agreement under pressure and quickly with little time to really think ... I start asking questions.. Ultimately, that’s when I slow down..
But I am saying things like this are a symptom of a overall global issue called corporate greed. Past history shows this..
If you also noticed I’m not bashing jazz.. I’m actually saying “ lay-off” to the jazz bashers.
Yeesh!!!
Last edited by GhostRider6 on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.