Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8132
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by iflyforpie »

Yes I often use circling this way as well. And you do have to notify the applicable ATC that you are intending to circle. I know someone who got CADORSed that didn’t..

That really sucks if they are going to take that away from us.

In some mountainous places it’s almost 60 miles between initial fixes to opposite ends of the runway because of terrain.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Tail hook
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:43 am
Location: Canada

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Tail hook »

Hopefully they will reduce my Navcan fees to off set the price of maintaining my GPS database.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Zaibatsu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Zaibatsu »

I CANT BELIEVE THEY ARE DISCONNECTING NDBS WHY BACK IN MY DAY WE COULD GO ZERO ZERO IN A BLIZZARD 50 KNOT CROSSWIND ON A THOUSAND FOOT DIRT STRIP WITH A FIXED CARD ADF A COMPASS A WRISTWATCH AND A BOTTLE OF RYE AND WE WERE FAR SAFER THAN THIS MAGENTA LINE GENERATION
---------- ADS -----------
 
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by lownslow »

Zaibatsu wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:54 am
I CANT BELIEVE THEY ARE DISCONNECTING NDBS WHY BACK IN MY DAY WE COULD GO ZERO ZERO IN A BLIZZARD 50 KNOT CROSSWIND ON A THOUSAND FOOT DIRT STRIP WITH A FIXED CARD ADF A COMPASS A WRISTWATCH AND A BOTTLE OF RYE AND WE WERE FAR SAFER THAN THIS MAGENTA LINE GENERATION
Yes, I do feel that way. Thank you for noticing.
---------- ADS -----------
 
linecrew
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1887
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
Location: On final so get off the damn runway!

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by linecrew »

tsgas wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:34 pm
linecrew wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:56 pm Apparently there will be a recovery network of conventional NAVAIDs left in place in case of a GPS outage.

There's a bunch of info from Nav Canada here.
IFR in Canadastan will mean "I Follow Roads". :lol:
*"I Follow RNAV" :wink:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2565
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Meatservo »

lownslow wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:16 pm
Zaibatsu wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:54 am
I CANT BELIEVE THEY ARE DISCONNECTING NDBS WHY BACK IN MY DAY WE COULD GO ZERO ZERO IN A BLIZZARD 50 KNOT CROSSWIND ON A THOUSAND FOOT DIRT STRIP WITH A FIXED CARD ADF A COMPASS A WRISTWATCH AND A BOTTLE OF RYE AND WE WERE FAR SAFER THAN THIS MAGENTA LINE GENERATION
Yes, I do feel that way. Thank you for noticing.
Yeah, exactly. When did not knowing how to do things become a token of superiority? Anyway, the "Magenta Line" generation is already a generation ago. The newest generation of pilots aren't much different than a mom driving her kids to soccer practice in a minivan and hoping the hamsters under the hood don't get tired before they get there. Well, you have to actually steer a minivan. Never mind.
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Zaibatsu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Zaibatsu »

I know how do an NDB approach. And doing it on autopilot is far harder than hand flying it.

I won’t ever think it’s safer and if anyone told me to do it in those conditions because they did it that way I’d tell them the only reason they are still alive (unlike many of their generation) is because of luck and to kindly go fck themselves.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Tubkal
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:05 pm

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Tubkal »

Zaibatsu wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:54 am
I CANT BELIEVE THEY ARE DISCONNECTING NDBS WHY BACK IN MY DAY WE COULD GO ZERO ZERO IN A BLIZZARD 50 KNOT CROSSWIND ON A THOUSAND FOOT DIRT STRIP WITH A FIXED CARD ADF A COMPASS A WRISTWATCH AND A BOTTLE OF RYE AND WE WERE FAR SAFER THAN THIS MAGENTA LINE GENERATION
Here we go again, with the classic and boring intergenerational clash that apparently is present in every profession. With all my due respects to the old-timers, we have to understand that the magenta lines are dominating aviation navigation for a sole reason: safety. Being able to visualize an approach in a screen, with the pertinent waypoints and fixes, including the altitudes and speeds restrictions, adding terrain and weather overlay increases DRASTICALLY situational awareness, reduces the workload and stress, virtues highly appreciated by the crew, especially in heavy IMC conditions. Therefore, it is true that the so-called 'magenta line' can reduce the pilot's judgment, 'trusting the computer too much', so, that is why it is crucial to educate flight crews with the potential dangers of GNSS (jamming, lost of signal...), and treating them as NON precision (except LPVs of course), verifying your GPS data with the CAP, use NAVAIDs as backups etc.. At the end of the day, NDB or RNAV, our professional judgment should stay the same, trusting both methods the same, and make an effort to stay proficient in every kind of approaches.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2565
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Meatservo »

This is all true, but the intergenerational shit was started with that silly post above by "Zaibatsu". You know, nobody old or young is doing NDB approaches anymore unless they absolutely have to. And they're actually pretty easy on autopilot too, having done a few I'd say that depending on what autopilot you have, it's probably easier than hand-flying the approach if you're proficient at autopilot use.

However, NDBs, for their simplicity, are kind of handy for reasons other than just using your wristwatch, fixed card ADF and bottle of rye. The one use I mentioned previously was being able to set your DG prior to commencing an approach in the NDA. If you don't happen to be blessed with an IRS, it's something you need to be able to do. Using the bearing information from an NDB in conjunction with your position from the GPS is far quicker, handier and more accurate, not to mention easier, than using the astrocompass, or setting "track" from your GPS alone on the DG, which should be a last resort since you likely don't know how the wind is affecting you at altitude. I realize it's a "niche market", but people are still flying up there, and it wasn't too long ago some folk died at least partly because they did not set their DG properly.

On top of not being comfortable with all your IFR navigation abilities being dependent on space-borne facilities owned by foreigners, there's still stuff the old beacons and VORs are good for. DME for instance- nice to know your actual distance to the field when you're heading to an initial RNAV fix, without having to go to some FMS page when someone asks your distance to the field.

Therefore it's not just a bunch of old farts whingeing about the past, it's frustration with government people who don't fly making decisions about what we need based on the recommendations of people who don't have to deal with it. And guys like "Zaibatsu" baiting people with silly comments.
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by goingnowherefast »

Meatservo, that was well said. I also suspect that post was meant in sarcasm.

There's a legal requirement for IFR navigation redundancy. Can that be met with dual GPSs? Apparently they seem to think so. I still quite like my secondary source of nav data to be derived differently. As Meatservo stated, it provides different information that further enhances the info given by the GPS.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Zaibatsu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Zaibatsu »

Meatservo wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:53 pm This is all true, but the intergenerational shit was started with that silly post above by "Zaibatsu". You know, nobody old or young is doing NDB approaches anymore unless they absolutely have to. And they're actually pretty easy on autopilot too, having done a few I'd say that depending on what autopilot you have, it's probably easier than hand-flying the approach if you're proficient at autopilot use.
Actually they’re good for cloud breaks because some of them let you cut corners on straight in approaches and often have the lowest sector altitudes.

Circling on autopilot is often a handful for most people.
However, NDBs, for their simplicity, are kind of handy for reasons other than just using your wristwatch, fixed card ADF and bottle of rye. The one use I mentioned previously was being able to set your DG prior to commencing an approach in the NDA. If you don't happen to be blessed with an IRS, it's something you need to be able to do. Using the bearing information from an NDB in conjunction with your position from the GPS is far quicker, handier and more accurate, not to mention easier, than using the astrocompass, or setting "track" from your GPS alone on the DG, which should be a last resort since you likely don't know how the wind is affecting you at altitude. I realize it's a "niche market", but people are still flying up there, and it wasn't too long ago some folk died at least partly because they did not set their DG properly.


I can’t imagine a wind drift error being greater than that from an NDB. :lol:
On top of not being comfortable with all your IFR navigation abilities being dependent on space-borne facilities owned by foreigners, there's still stuff the old beacons and VORs are good for. DME for instance- nice to know your actual distance to the field when you're heading to an initial RNAV fix, without having to go to some FMS page when someone asks your distance to the field.
My FMS displays distance to field in an MFD field and at distances far greater than DMEs do. Lots of ILSs have DMEs and it doesn’t look like DMEs are being decommissioned anyways.
Therefore it's not just a bunch of old farts whingeing about the past, it's frustration with government people who don't fly making decisions about what we need based on the recommendations of people who don't have to deal with it. And guys like "Zaibatsu" baiting people with silly comments.
It’s also based on what people fly and file, which is pretty much all RNAV direct to an RNAV initial fix for an RNAV approach. I’ll usually throw up an NDB for amusement and thank god I don’t have to fly them down to minimums anymore.
---------- ADS -----------
 
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8132
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by iflyforpie »

Can you fly an NDB coupled to the autopilot? LNAV won’t follow an NDB.

My plane tells me No Approach and says that it’s for advisory only. Things got confusing after GPS overlays disappeared.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Capt. Underpants
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 am

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Capt. Underpants »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:11 pm
Mostly Harmless wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:27 pm It's a good thing GPS jamming and GPS spoofing are not real things happening around the world.
Or solar storms. Granted big ones are rare, but in the future they will now ground the entire IFR world due to no navigation.
What about the ones that are already in the air with a destination area that's all IMC? Better hope it's in a radar or ADSB monitored environment.
---------- ADS -----------
 
shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by shimmydampner »

Zaibatsu wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:19 pm Circling on autopilot is often a handful for most people.
Really? Most people? If that's a handful for someone beyond their first handful of times practised in sim, they should get a different job.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
confusedalot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 959
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:08 pm
Location: location, location, is what matters

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by confusedalot »

Just another reflection of our public service.
These people do not have the ability to think one inch in front of their noses.
But hey, if you save a few pennies to make room for outrageous spending elsewhere in the public service world, it's all OK.
Public service idiots are continuing to destroy the infrastructure for their own personal purposes.
So get ready to pay a whole lot of money for IRS equipment. And renew your 40 year old radar mapping skills just to get on the ground.
We are going backwards. Courtesy of public servants.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Attempting to understand the world. I have not succeeded.

veni, vidi,...... vici non fecit.

:?
linecrew
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1887
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
Location: On final so get off the damn runway!

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by linecrew »

confusedalot wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:23 pm Just another reflection of our public service.
These people do not have the ability to think one inch in front of their noses.
But hey, if you save a few pennies to make room for outrageous spending elsewhere in the public service world, it's all OK.
Public service idiots are continuing to destroy the infrastructure for their own personal purposes.
So get ready to pay a whole lot of money for IRS equipment. And renew your 40 year old radar mapping skills just to get on the ground.
We are going backwards. Courtesy of public servants.
You do know that Nav Canada is a private, not for profit company and not the government, right?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1311
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

2019.....about time. Can’t remember my last NDB approach. Oh ya, it was on a ride...screwed it up royally. Always do. Twenty first century kids.....can’t listen to music or a game, decommission the puppy! They’ll have to rewrite alternate rules.....the Yanks live without them. I’m sure we could.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by C.W.E. »

I really miss the Radio Range system.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mixturerich
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by mixturerich »

C.W.E. wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:06 pm I really miss the Radio Range system.
...said no one ever.
---------- ADS -----------
 
J31
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1233
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:21 am

Re: Canada To Decommission Hundreds of VORs, NDBs

Post by J31 »

C.W.E. wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:06 pm I really miss the Radio Range system.
Sure you do, sure you do! :lol: :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”