GhostRider6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:37 am
So you took a job and left without staying a full year despite that company investing money into training you? I hope you turned down The Sunwing job..This is why bonds exist..
I’ve been in this exact position where I interviewed at company A and B. Company A was my dream job and company B wasn’t. Company B had substantially Lower pay etc. however, I was out of a job ..
Company B calls and offers a job. Meanwhile, company A is still doing their hiring process... I’m also unemployed...
I start out at Company B .. get through groundschool and into the sim.
Company A calls and offers the job. I tell company A I’ve made a comittment to company B.. and had to decline despite really wanting to work for company A . My word is worth something...
Did you tell Jazz in their interview that you’d leave if something came up that suited your needs better? ( after they’ve invested in you)
Jazz or Sunwing ?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Also talk about burning a major bridge with Jazz........this is a small industry.GhostRider6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:37 am
So you took a job and left without staying a full year despite that company investing money into training you? I hope you turned down The Sunwing job..This is why bonds exist..
I’ve been in this exact position where I interviewed at company A and B. Company A was my dream job and company B wasn’t. Company B had substantially Lower pay etc. however, I was out of a job ..
Company B calls and offers a job. Meanwhile, company A is still doing their hiring process... I’m also unemployed...
I start out at Company B .. get through groundschool and into the sim.
Company A calls and offers the job. I tell company A I’ve made a comittment to company B.. and had to decline despite really wanting to work for company A . My word is worth something...
Did you tell Jazz in their interview that you’d leave if something came up that suited your needs better? ( after they’ve invested in you)
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Jazz can suck it. It’s not like he took a Kingair PPC from a mom and pop shop and went to work for the competition next door after 3 months. If Jazz paid their FOs more than starving wages then they wouldn’t have people leaving. Look at the SWG payscale, unlike Jazz, it’s a career destination and not a step up feeder to the AC grinder. And this is coming from a guy who dreamed of joining SWG but had to turn it down because of prior commitments.
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
lol. queue all the jazz coolaid fanboy club.daedalusx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:36 am Jazz can suck it. It’s not like he took a Kingair PPC from a mom and pop shop and went to work for the competition next door after 3 months. If Jazz paid their FOs more than starving wages then they wouldn’t have people leaving. Look at the SWG payscale, unlike Jazz, it’s a career destination and not a step up feeder to the AC grinder. And this is coming from a guy who dreamed of joining SWG but had to turn it down because of prior commitments.
Get this - jazz is a regional airline. nothing different from all the supply shops down in the states apart from the fact you get paid half the amount.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Sure, the FO pay leaves a lot to be desired, but it's in-line with most other mainstream regionals. That being said, our contract, scheduling rules, and benefits far exceed the norm. Bottom line, if you don't like it, don't apply.
As for jumping ship after only a few months, that is pretty deplorable, especially when you're working for a good company. While the OP will likely be fine given the current climate, I'm not sure this move will be viewed favourable by other company's if the economy slows down and the OP is forced to apply elsewhere. I know a few places where jumping ship immediately gets your resume in the bin.
Sure, the FO pay leaves a lot to be desired, but it's in-line with most other mainstream regionals. That being said, our contract, scheduling rules, and benefits far exceed the norm. Bottom line, if you don't like it, don't apply.
As for jumping ship after only a few months, that is pretty deplorable, especially when you're working for a good company. While the OP will likely be fine given the current climate, I'm not sure this move will be viewed favourable by other company's if the economy slows down and the OP is forced to apply elsewhere. I know a few places where jumping ship immediately gets your resume in the bin.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Try 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.DH8Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
+1daedalusx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:12 pmTry 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.DH8Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Every 703/704 I’ve been at over the years had my FOs not only financially starving but starving in other ways as well. Respectfully, it appears you’re being bitter and nothing more. Anyone could say negative things about any operation. Maybe Jazz works for some people, doesn’t mean it will for you or I, but many seem to be fine there.daedalusx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:12 pmTry 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.DH8Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
As an FO at Jazz I can say the only negative thing is that I cant pay my bills. Thankfully I got a big line of credit from a previous career.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
That's pretty disturbing. A PROFESSIONAL airline pilot at a leading 705 regional needs to go into debt to pay the bills. No wonder somebody jumped ship to Sunwing after a few months.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Don’t get me wrong... I’m not drinking the “ jazz coolaid”
I’ve see my colleagues paycheques at Jazz and I made more as rampie/ C206 driver. ( with 500TT) The people I know at jazz are in the 3000- 5000 hour realm.. obviously there’s a draw for them to come to Jazz.
I / others disagree on how the new agreement went.. 2 weeks to decide 17 years.. the writing is one that wall..
However, all of this aside,you signed up to do a job and gave a company your word . Don’t join a company with the intention to jump ship..either stay for a year + and turn down SWG .. or don’t take the effing job and take your chances at Sunwing. Doing this screws the pilot group more than we already are and gives companies the ammo they need for things like... bonds!
I’ve see my colleagues paycheques at Jazz and I made more as rampie/ C206 driver. ( with 500TT) The people I know at jazz are in the 3000- 5000 hour realm.. obviously there’s a draw for them to come to Jazz.
I / others disagree on how the new agreement went.. 2 weeks to decide 17 years.. the writing is one that wall..
However, all of this aside,you signed up to do a job and gave a company your word . Don’t join a company with the intention to jump ship..either stay for a year + and turn down SWG .. or don’t take the effing job and take your chances at Sunwing. Doing this screws the pilot group more than we already are and gives companies the ammo they need for things like... bonds!
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
History has shown, every pilot group no matter what association or union or company, has always "effed" over those that come behind them. There is no solidarity in this industry...
Best advise I ever heard was to run your career like a business, cause nobody else is looking out for you and yes I am a cynic
Best advise I ever heard was to run your career like a business, cause nobody else is looking out for you and yes I am a cynic
Gravity always wins
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
The Jazz system is set up to accomplish 2 goals:
- overpay new hire candidates that are under qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
- underpay new hire candidates that are over qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
That may seem like a contradiction in terms but in practice it allows Jazz to hire a significant number of low time First Officers who will have to work at the low pay rates for several years until qualified and competent to pass an upgrade, and it forces qualified pilots to bid the upgrade ASAP to earn a respectable professional pilot wage.
The result of this system is that it is possible for a second year Jazz pilot with the required licence to upgrade and with consistent overtime of 2-3 days per month of overtime make $100,000. Same financial opportunity is available at SWG for a new hire First Officer who picks up overtime. A SWG First Officer must meet very stringent experience requirements for upgrade.
If it was a time of low pilot attrition and slow upgrade progress, Jazz would have a difficult time attracting any new hire pilots with experience. Instead, with record attrition to AC and elsewhere the upgrade window is 12-24 months. That will be the case for the next couple of years but will not continue forever. The Jazz fleet is forecast to shrink and AC hiring rates will taper off after 2020.
Meanwhile SWG has fairly early opportunities for upgrade due to pilot roster expansion but limited attrition rates.
- overpay new hire candidates that are under qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
- underpay new hire candidates that are over qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer
That may seem like a contradiction in terms but in practice it allows Jazz to hire a significant number of low time First Officers who will have to work at the low pay rates for several years until qualified and competent to pass an upgrade, and it forces qualified pilots to bid the upgrade ASAP to earn a respectable professional pilot wage.
The result of this system is that it is possible for a second year Jazz pilot with the required licence to upgrade and with consistent overtime of 2-3 days per month of overtime make $100,000. Same financial opportunity is available at SWG for a new hire First Officer who picks up overtime. A SWG First Officer must meet very stringent experience requirements for upgrade.
If it was a time of low pilot attrition and slow upgrade progress, Jazz would have a difficult time attracting any new hire pilots with experience. Instead, with record attrition to AC and elsewhere the upgrade window is 12-24 months. That will be the case for the next couple of years but will not continue forever. The Jazz fleet is forecast to shrink and AC hiring rates will taper off after 2020.
Meanwhile SWG has fairly early opportunities for upgrade due to pilot roster expansion but limited attrition rates.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.htmlbearitus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
THIS!!!
If it were a Ma and Pa shop with a 206 and a King Air that offers decent pay and schedule, then yes, I'd agree jumping ship early is bad. That IS why bonds exist.
However Jazz is a large company with 1500? pilots. Surely management understands and accept that with crap pay, people are gong to leave for better opportunities. Hell, 1st year FOs can't afford to live on the salary. Do they really expect pilots to stay when another company is offering a salary they can live on?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
When a company forces or pressures an employee group into the concessions (a/b scale contract) then also a ultra long term under paid contract, that company surrenders all ability to complain about people leaving.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
You are largely correct. This is the system that AC has put in place for the Express carriers by playing them off against each other. Since the training costs are a pass through to AC, the cost of constant turn over is on them. Not ideal is you ask me, but I'm sure the bean counters at AC have done the math and figure they will save overall.Yycjetdriver wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:48 am When a company forces or pressures an employee group into the concessions (a/b scale contract) then also a ultra long term under paid contract, that company surrenders all ability to complain about people leaving.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
Jazz knows the bottom of the list will continue to turn over indefinitely. With a constant turnover, more pilots never make it to the top pay scales. That is just part of the business now.
Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?munzil wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 amThe way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.htmlbearitus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.mbav8r wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pmA first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?munzil wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 amThe way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.htmlbearitus wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.