Jazz or Sunwing ?

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bearitus
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by bearitus »

FOD_Vacuum wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
munzil wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am

The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html

This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
Exactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.
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DH8Pilot
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot »

I don't think anyone is trying to justify the FO pay. The majority of post-2015 hires would place correcting FO pay at the top of their priority list, but we have to be pragmatic. The pay is still in-line with other mainstream regionals. Again, why apply if you don't like the pay? Economies of supply and demand would eventually call for increased salaries if more people said no, but Jazz sure isn't having trouble filling ground schools.

As for those arguing that anyone who voted yes for MOS4 did so out of fear, all I can say is that it's extremely easy to hide behind the guise that voting no would've somehow helped the next generation of pilots. I personally find this mindset totally illogical. There was a high probability that voting no would've led to more work going to GGN or Sky, since these carriers were specifically designed to reduce the leverage of the AC/Jazz pilot groups. After what happened in 2010/2012/2015, I doubt Calin would've let us take the wheel now. What we would've then seen is a greater proportion of pilots going to GGN and Sky in the future, especially post-2025. Please explain to me how this would've helped the next generation of pilots? Don't get me wrong, I do think there were valid reasons for people to vote no. If you were willing to take the risk, then that's fine. However, don't act like you're all somehow the saviours of the industry by voting no, as you just as easily could've fucked over the next generation of pilots too.
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mbav8r
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r »

FOD_Vacuum wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
munzil wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am

The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html

This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
I’m not justifying anything, you are! I was simple correcting a false post about the wages being below minimum wage.
Why do they put up with it? Fact is, the pay is what it is because the pilots ACCEPT it by taking the fn job.
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mbav8r
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r »

bearitus wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:04 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
Exactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.
Apparently there is a monetary value to a shot at AC, it’s the exact amount that makes you willing to ACCEPT the “disgustingly low pay” at Jazz.
You’re a hypocrite, “I accept it because it gives me a shot at a better paying job”, who exactly is screwing over the next generation of pilots, the ones who protected what they had or the ones who take the crap pay to better their personal future? Ponder that for a bit.
Have you taken responsibility for your actions or is it still someone else’s fault for your shitty pay cheque?
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by C-GGGQ »

Show me where else to go then? The option is this, or no job. It's not an option
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot »

Well, there's literally five job ads being posted every day now, so I'm not really sure what your issue is.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by C-GGGQ »

Issue is they all pay low. So it's not like you turn down Jazz cause Encore is 55k to start
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munzil
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by munzil »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:12 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
I’m not justifying anything, you are! I was simple correcting a false post about the wages being below minimum wage.
Why do they put up with it? Fact is, the pay is what it is because the pilots ACCEPT it by taking the fn job.
Mbv8r, under or just over minimum wage, justifying this type of wage makes you part of the problem and not the solution.

I have been in aviation for more than 25 years and it frankly doesn't affect me at all. Unlike you it seems, I care about the new hires and the state of the industry. They also have the chance of a much faster rate of movement than we did back when. I still care and think it is atrocious what they get paid especially compared to other similar companies around the world and with the cost of living here.

They are been taken advantage of in a position with high debt and desperate for income and it is wrong . No one knows exactly how much they made going to get paid here because of overtime, possible per diems that can make the difference between losing money or breaking even.

Your lack of empathy for your fellow pilots is just sad.

Saying that, for every new pilot that leaves Jazz because they just can't survive, hopefully this will have a positive net effect.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem »

DH8Pilot wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:23 am There was a high probability that voting no would've led to more work going to GGN or Sky, since these carriers were specifically designed to reduce the leverage of the AC/Jazz pilot groups...Please explain to me how this would've helped the next generation of pilots?
Sky pays substantially more than Jazz, and GGN was so unreliable, with such terrible publicity, that AC was going to drop them sooner or later anyway. If the work had gone to Sky, tons of Jazz pilots would have moved over to make $8 more per hour. Jazz pilots signed on to be the lowest-paid regional pilots in the country for the next 16 years, and you think that's helping the next generation?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by rudder »

Diadem wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:15 am Jazz pilots signed on to be the lowest-paid regional pilots in the country for the next 16 years, and you think that's helping the next generation?
AC pilots are the lowest paid mainline pilots in North America with by far the lowest year 1-4 non CA pay.

What are your thoughts on that?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem »

rudder wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 am AC pilots are the lowest paid mainline pilots in North America with by far the lowest year 1-4 non CA pay.

What are your thoughts on that?
I don't see how that's comparable in any way, considering that work isn't being shifted to whatever airline pays the least. If that were the case, though, by your reasoning AC pilots should be keeping their own wages low to win the work!
What I do see is that the lower scale at Jazz makes it more likely that people will try to move to AC as quickly as possible, regardless of the conditions, and this will help to suppress wages at AC; when you're making $40/hr, AC flat pay sounds like a dream. If Jazz pilots made what SR crews do, they'd be less inclined to leave so soon, whereas people who would previously have been content making a career at Jazz now see it as a stepping stone. If AC had a harder time finding qualified applicants, they would have to sweeten the pot. Jazz pilots have helped to degrade the entire industry with this deal.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot »

Diadem wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:15 am Sky pays substantially more than Jazz, and GGN was so unreliable, with such terrible publicity, that AC was going to drop them sooner or later anyway. If the work had gone to Sky, tons of Jazz pilots would have moved over to make $8 more per hour. Jazz pilots signed on to be the lowest-paid regional pilots in the country for the next 16 years, and you think that's helping the next generation?
You have to look at the bigger picture. Jazz's contract far exceeds that of any other mainstream regional in Canada. Even if we compare first year FO at Jazz v. Sky, when you factor in per diems, benefits, pension, ESOP, etc., the total package at Jazz exceeds that of Sky. Hell, even our scheduling rules are far better. I haven't worked more than 15 days in a month in over a year. Look at the nightmare that is Sky's present scheduling situation, then consider that at Jazz all a new FO has to do is pick up 1 WDO every few months to make up the base pay difference, all while still getting most of the month off. Honestly, I don't think your argument holds.

As for GGN, everyone loves to note their unreliability, but they posted better on-time performance and flight completion numbers than both Sky and Jazz in 2017 and 2018. I'm also quite certain they were the cheapest CPA carrier, especially given how Jazz had to reduce their profit margin to zero to make this CPA deal work.
What I do see is that the lower scale at Jazz makes it more likely that people will try to move to AC as quickly as possible, regardless of the conditions, and this will help to suppress wages at AC; when you're making $40/hr, AC flat pay sounds like a dream. If Jazz pilots made what SR crews do, they'd be less inclined to leave so soon, whereas people who would previously have been content making a career at Jazz now see it as a stepping stone. If AC had a harder time finding qualified applicants, they would have to sweeten the pot. Jazz pilots have helped to degrade the entire industry with this deal.
This is purely illogical. No one is holding out on AC because of an extra $8/hr. As for pointing fingers at the Jazz pilots, well our present regional situation is precisely due to GGN and Sky, so I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Outlaw58 »

double post
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Last edited by Outlaw58 on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Outlaw58 »

Diadem wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:32 am
rudder wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 am AC pilots are the lowest paid mainline pilots in North America with by far the lowest year 1-4 non CA pay.

What are your thoughts on that?
I don't see how that's comparable in any way, considering that work isn't being shifted to whatever airline pays the least. If that were the case, though, by your reasoning AC pilots should be keeping their own wages low to win the work!
What I do see is that the lower scale at Jazz makes it more likely that people will try to move to AC as quickly as possible, regardless of the conditions, and this will help to suppress wages at AC; when you're making $40/hr, AC flat pay sounds like a dream. If Jazz pilots made what SR crews do, they'd be less inclined to leave so soon, whereas people who would previously have been content making a career at Jazz now see it as a stepping stone. If AC had a harder time finding qualified applicants, they would have to sweeten the pot. Jazz pilots have helped to degrade the entire industry with this deal.
You obviously need to do more homework cause as a Jazz FO, I do not identify with any part of your last comment.

Before I did my homework, I would not even consider ANY regional since the pay cut would be to steep. My goals were set on corporate and during that time, SR called me and got turned down 3 times before I finally decided to investigate the Regional option further. Even though SR pays more, the conditions at Jazz were that much better that I opted for it rather than the higher paying SR.

Money is NOT everything.

58
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by bearitus »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:19 am
bearitus wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:04 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm

Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
Exactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.
Apparently there is a monetary value to a shot at AC, it’s the exact amount that makes you willing to ACCEPT the “disgustingly low pay” at Jazz.
You’re a hypocrite, “I accept it because it gives me a shot at a better paying job”, who exactly is screwing over the next generation of pilots, the ones who protected what they had or the ones who take the crap pay to better their personal future? Ponder that for a bit.
Have you taken responsibility for your actions or is it still someone else’s fault for your shitty pay cheque?
It's squarely my own fault that I have a bad pay cheque and I am actively trying to improve my situation before I drown in debt. I don't think there will ever be pilot unity as everyone thinks about their own career self interests first and management knows how to exploit that to their benefit. In a perfect world we would all stay in our 703 captain jobs until the majors called or the regionals upped their FO pay.
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Diadem
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem »

You're all missing the point: SR pays $8/hr more than the new contract, which means that Jazz had plenty of room to raise wages and still be competitive for AC's flying. So to all the posters above, why didn't Jazz pilots try to negotiate for a pay scale that's the same as SR's? With the same benefits you have now, you would have all be just as happy with the lifestyle, but could make more money. Even if you took a dollar less per hour than SR to make sure you were still cost-competitive you could have gotten new Jazz pilots huge raises, and probably more money for those who are already there. And yet, you took the first offer and locked yourselves in to the lowest regional scale in the country for 16 more years, and it sounds like you'd be willing to make even less, because you like the benefits and the better chance of going to AC. Why, if you were making $10/hr less than SR before, would you accept a raise of only $2?! To make sure that you have work for a decade and a half? At that wage, no one is going to be there for that long, so this wasn't about longevity, it was about personal gains and the ability to go to AC as quickly as possible. They dangled flow in front of you, and you lunged at it like a shiny object. You accepted this garbage, and new hires will continue to accept this garbage, solely for the flow to AC, so don't try to blow smoke up our asses and tell us that this is about the good of the company and "the next generation"; it's about getting to AC as soon as possible, even if it means going into debt for years to do so.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Diadem wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:49 am You're all missing the point: SR pays $8/hr more than the new contract, which means that Jazz had plenty of room to raise wages and still be competitive for AC's flying. So to all the posters above, why didn't Jazz pilots try to negotiate for a pay scale that's the same as SR's? With the same benefits you have now, you would have all be just as happy with the lifestyle, but could make more money. Even if you took a dollar less per hour than SR to make sure you were still cost-competitive you could have gotten new Jazz pilots huge raises, and probably more money for those who are already there. And yet, you took the first offer and locked yourselves in to the lowest regional scale in the country for 16 more years, and it sounds like you'd be willing to make even less, because you like the benefits and the better chance of going to AC. Why, if you were making $10/hr less than SR before, would you accept a raise of only $2?! To make sure that you have work for a decade and a half? At that wage, no one is going to be there for that long, so this wasn't about longevity, it was about personal gains and the ability to go to AC as quickly as possible. They dangled flow in front of you, and you lunged at it like a shiny object. You accepted this garbage, and new hires will continue to accept this garbage, solely for the flow to AC, so don't try to blow smoke up our asses and tell us that this is about the good of the company and "the next generation"; it's about getting to AC as soon as possible, even if it means going into debt for years to do so.
+1, well said.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot »

Diadem, you're still assuming voting no would've led to further negotiations, eventually yielding an increase in pay. I have two problems with this idea.

Firstly, this CPA was contingent on us signing MOS4. AC wasn't coming back to Jazz if we voted no. With this new deal, Jazz's profit margins are now effectively zero, which signals other companies were bidding for that work too. AC could've easily turned to GGN or Sky to do that flying.

Secondly, our union walked away from the negotiating table many times before this deal was even presented to the pilot group. Do you really think no attempt was made to increase FO wages?

So if we're talking about the next generation of pilots, we have to ask what company has the best contract to work under. That is still Jazz without a doubt. So why wouldn't I vote in a way that would ensure work continued coming to us, rather than forcing a greater proportion of pilots to GGN and Sky under shittier conditions?

Also, you keep comparing first year salary to first year salary. The average Jazz pilot makes significantly more than the average Sky pilot.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by rudder »

Jazz year 1-4 FO pay is too low.

AC year 1-4 non-CA pay is too low.


And to continue with a fact based discussion:


What is the SKY pilot pension arrangement?

What is the SKY pilot health/dental/disability/life arrangement? Who pays the premiums?

What is the SKY system for per diems?

What are the duty rigs in place (min day/fly duty ratio/trip ratio) at SKY?

How many days a month does a SKY pilot work for 85 hours of flight pay?

What are the overtime pay premiums for SKY pilots?

Do SKY Pilots get pay credits for DH?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by hithere »

Take a read on the Skyregional forum on this very website. It would appear that from a scheduling perspective everyone there is miserable. Jeez you’d figure the extra $8 an hour that the new hires make would negate that...
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