Encore contract negotiations

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

Moderators: North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, Sulako

Freeport_Flyer
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:30 am

Encore contract negotiations

Post by Freeport_Flyer »

There was lots of chatter when Mainline went through the contract negotiations / binding 4 year arbitration...

What's the story on the Encore side? Big questions about the "one list" and flow-through seem to be of interest. Does anyone have any info on how things are going? Will ALPA be avoiding arbitration? Could WJ Mainline pick up the slack if Encore went on strike?

Good times!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Mr. North
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:27 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Mr. North »

The one list is dead.

The sooner Encore pilots recognize that fact, and act accordingly, the better off they'll be. Both MEC's may very well want the one list to succeed but the company is dragging their feet... why? Because negotiations with Encore pilots is about to get a whole lot more strenuous and the company will (needs to) hold onto whatever leverage it can.

Encore pilots should not be fooled into making concessions to keep their seniority intact. They should be the aggressor, and realize that the company gamble on widebody growth relies on them to feed the machine. In this market, any attempts to shortchange or cheat their current standing will be to the company's detriment. The new agreement between Jazz and AC has made employment at Encore (with a 5+ year flow time/seniority list in jeopardy) largely irrelevant!! Why would anyone bother?! The flow time at Jazz is under 3 years and the work and pay is better along the way.

I would argue Encore pilots should act as though their seniority is dead, and demand WAWCON reflecting a mature regional airline, with leading payscales, benefits, and a pension. Anything less and you're selling yourself short. We saw what arbitration did for big brother, I'd seriously consider walking the line.

Good times indeed!!
---------- ADS -----------
  

dhc#
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:38 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by dhc# »

Leverage for the Encore pilots will happen when flights start getting cancelled due to lack of crews to operate, then management will take notice.
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1825
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by goingnowherefast »

The company needs flow more than the pilots do. I just don't think anybody realizes it.

Encore pilots can go to AT, SW, CargoJet. So can Jazz pilots, plus there's the AC deal. What's the competitive draw that Encore can offer? Better make it a good deal, or Encore will be third fiddle for those who washed out from the Jazz and Porter hiring process.

Although WJ management is likely not going to realize this until it's too late, they're cancelling flights and can't recruit.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DropTanks
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DropTanks »

.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by DropTanks on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by sstaurus »

Flow and the one list are separate issues. They can still pick a flow rate, while making seniority worth zip.

I would guess the main reasons for the delay are the company lawyers, leverage with encore bargaining, and also the difficulty it creates in recruiting for Mainline and Swoop. Harder to find people who want to start at WJ knowing they are immediately behind some ~600 pilots already..
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yieldermatik
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Yieldermatik »

Flow through can be happening but seniority from Encore to WJ/Swoop restarts at zero for these guys/gals, no? Correct me if I’m wrong. What needs to happen for this “one list” thing to pass or die?
DropTanks wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:32 am
Mr. North wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:31 pm
The one list is dead.

The sooner Encore pilots recognize that fact, and act accordingly, the better off they'll be. Both MEC's may very well want the one list to succeed but the company is dragging their feet... why? Because negotiations with Encore pilots is about to get a whole lot more strenuous and the company will (needs to) hold onto whatever leverage it can.

Encore pilots should not be fooled into making concessions to keep their seniority intact. They should be the aggressor, and realize that the company gamble on widebody growth relies on them to feed the machine. In this market, any attempts to shortchange or cheat their current standing will be to the company's detriment. The new agreement between Jazz and AC has made employment at Encore (with a 5+ year flow time/seniority list in jeopardy) largely irrelevant!! Why would anyone bother?! The flow time at Jazz is under 3 years and the work and pay is better along the way.

I would argue Encore pilots should act as though their seniority is dead, and demand WAWCON reflecting a mature regional airline, with leading payscales, benefits, and a pension. Anything less and you're selling yourself short. We saw what arbitration did for big brother, I'd seriously consider walking the line.

Good times indeed!!
Dead? Not at all bud. We just had two groundschools at mainline comprised mostly of Encore flow through. Another 60 to be hired before the 2nd quarter is over. As many have said both parties need flow through. The only reason the company is dragging their feet on the LOU is because anything ALPA related these days gets a big FU from management. They’re still playing childish games but flow is happening business as usual.

I do however agree with what one guy said above. Negotiate as if flow wasnt even a thing and get yourselves proper WAWCON. Time to erase the disgusting WJPA 80% of market median pay once and for all!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Dizzy D
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Dizzy D »

If the company decides to axe the one list, it will cause major problems for them. I know many Encore pilots that will have an “anywhere but here” approach if the one list disappears. People will be leaving for 703/704 jobs vs staying with Encore. As mentioned above, Encore will be the last option for qualified pilots in Canada. I would imagine that there will be parked Q400’s if that is the road taken. I believe that the company is fully aware of this. So in one way or another, the list will stay.
---------- ADS -----------
  

yvrpilot82
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:26 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by yvrpilot82 »

Flow doesn't seem to be in doubt. The One List certainly is wrapped in uncertainty though. Like most people, I think it'll stay. It's a great leverage tactic like others have mentioned. A carrot to dangle during negotiations.
The general consensus among anyone that's been here a couple of years is that there's only one way to face this hurdle ahead. And it certainly isn't arbitration after what happened to WJ.
A lot of the new hires are young, new to the industry, and waterboarded with koolaid during training. If, and when the vote does come out for action, I hope they realize that with a possible 10 years to flow, under the current working conditions it's gonna be a tough ride.
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1825
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by goingnowherefast »

Haha, waterboarded with koolaid. Better start using a stronger mix. Koolaid isn't as strong as it used to be.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DropTanks
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DropTanks »

.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by DropTanks on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yieldermatik
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Yieldermatik »

Ok now I’m cofused. Do you fly for Westjet? When you flow from Encore to WJ or Swoop, whichever, do you start at the bottom of seniority on those airlines or are you senior to other mainliners who came in direct-entry but after your date of hire at Encore? Genuinly asking. Thanks in advanced for clarifying this for me.
DropTanks wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:55 pm
Yeah I kind of interpreted the One List and flow as the same thing....because it’s kinda the same thing. Flow is happening in order of seniority on said list. People that flow change from DH4 to 737 on said list and they remain in their respective positions on that list just as they always have. There’s no discussion being had about this inside team teal. Zip, zilch, Nadda. The only panic seems to be happening on Avcanada.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DropTanks
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DropTanks »

.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by DropTanks on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yieldermatik
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Yieldermatik »

Crystal clear! Thanks again :)
DropTanks wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:49 pm
Yes I fly for WJ. The way it’s worked all this time is regardless of where you get hired you end up on 1 single shared seniority list by date of hire. People from Encore would flow to WJ when able and remain on the same list and position on it by their original date of hire. As you said there are many (myself included) at mainline that had hundreds of pilots senior to them who happened to still be at Encore and would parachute into mainline above them. This is how it has always been. The twist now is that only WJ and Swoop have a common bargaining unit. Encore is separate. However the arbitrator has ruled that all people that flowed (parachuted) into mainline from Encore will retain their positions on the One List as was always intended. Nothing has changed. Now because Encore is technically separate from the WJ bargaining unit we require a LOU between all parties to validate the continued business of maintaining just the One List by date of hire. All parties have agreed. Nobody is going against the grain. This is happening. Your date of hire in the teal team system will determine your seniority in the teal team forever. Done. End of story.

PS: the LOU hasn’t been stamped official yet, heck even our CBA hasn’t even been stamped final yet. Things are moving at a glacial pace but everything regarding the One List is rolling along as it always has.

Hope that helps
---------- ADS -----------
  

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by sstaurus »

Droptanks your post is confusing. You seem to think Flow and the One List are 'kinda the same thing', then proceed to explain that they are not. They are not the same at all. And it is far from a done deal.

Flow is just hiring. The company can hire from wherever. Those who flowed before the new contract, get to keep their place. Now, nobody knows if DOH will be preserved for anyone who follows. There are Direct hires to mainline (of which you seem to be, correct me if I'm wrong) who take issue with the fact that all of Encore is ahead of them, which could delay their upgrade for untold years. However, anyone hired direct knew this when they were hired, which is why I also take issue with the term 'parachute', which I feel is dismissive of everyone at Encore. Everyone who came to Encore came here as a means to an end. Put your time in in the trenches and you'll get to go to mainline, with some semblance of reward (DOH) for your time put in at Westjet. This is what is at risk of being taken away.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Mr. North
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:27 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Mr. North »

A number of people here don't fully appreciate the subject at hand.

Flow and the One List are not the same thing. Flow is the preferential hiring of Encore pilots at WestJet. It is a hiring ratio with no bearing on the larger seniority list. Flow, though different, equal in importance to the One List (DOH). The One List, aka WPDL, aka WPSL, determines who can bid for left seat at mainline, bases, or placement on reserve. For years WestJet has been selling Encore pilots on the promise of seniority (in addition to flow) if they pay their dues at Encore. That promise is about to go up in smoke and everyone is sitting there with a laissez faire attitude saying "all parties want it" or "WestJet won't survive without it". They are deluding themselves from the realities of negotiations and the company's concern for them as pilots. Mark my words, management will use the One List to leverage concessions from the Encore pilot group. To what degree remains to be seen but it will most certainly cost something to maintain and I doubt it will come cheap.

The "One List LOU" that everyone wants would be a tri-party agreement. But things begin to get complicated if Encore entered arbitration and tried to secure seniority onto another bargaining unit. It worked out well for WestJet and Swoop, but that was mainline absorbing a subsidiary, not the other way around. And as the last few month have shown, all bets are off in arbitration.

With that in mind and contrary to popular belief, Encore will not collapse in the absence of the One List. Sure pilots may boast about quiting or applying in droves to AC (hello Jazz flow agreement).... But it's largely cockpit talk and slow to realize, it is not an immediate consequence to the company. Meanwhile pilots (however inexperienced) are still coming in the door.

Encore pilots will have to decide if they should make concessions to keep the status quo, risk arbitration, or take a stand for what is rightfully theirs and hit the picket line. Easy for me to say but I'd vote fore the latter.
---------- ADS -----------
  

yvrpilot82
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:26 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by yvrpilot82 »

Agreed Mr. North.
Let's not forget that one of the biggest challenges they face is crewing Swoop with the current WAWCON. Removing Encore pilots off the One List will work in the company's favour, as it will likely push many Encore pilots to accept a Swoop position in order start their DOH on the WDPL/WPSL.
These truly are cut-throat times, and everything is up in the air.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yieldermatik
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Yieldermatik »

I don’t think he meant to use the word parachute in a demeaning way.
sstaurus wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:39 pm
Droptanks your post is confusing. You seem to think Flow and the One List are 'kinda the same thing', then proceed to explain that they are not. They are not the same at all. And it is far from a done deal.

Flow is just hiring. The company can hire from wherever. Those who flowed before the new contract, get to keep their place. Now, nobody knows if DOH will be preserved for anyone who follows. There are Direct hires to mainline (of which you seem to be, correct me if I'm wrong) who take issue with the fact that all of Encore is ahead of them, which could delay their upgrade for untold years. However, anyone hired direct knew this when they were hired, which is why I also take issue with the term 'parachute', which I feel is dismissive of everyone at Encore. Everyone who came to Encore came here as a means to an end. Put your time in in the trenches and you'll get to go to mainline, with some semblance of reward (DOH) for your time put in at Westjet. This is what is at risk of being taken away.
---------- ADS -----------
  

SPR
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:32 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by SPR »

sstaurus wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:39 pm
You seem to think Flow and the One List are 'kinda the same thing', then proceed to explain that they are not. They are not the same at all. And it is far from a done deal.

Flow is just hiring. The company can hire from wherever.
They aren't technically the same, but they are directly related. It's effectively a seniority bidding system, with seniority determined by the WPDL; anyone can bid for any position within the WestJet group of companies, but whether they can hold the position is determined by their position on the list. That goes for Encore pilots the same as OTS hires or Swoop pilots, so if an Encore pilot accepts a WestJet position in YYZ, they'll have precedence over any OTS pilots hired after them bidding for YYC. If an Encore pilot wanted to stay at Encore until they could hold a WestJet captain position, they could. "Flow" is just another way of saying that the Encore pilots were able to bid into WestJet positions.
As for using the List as a bargaining chip, I don't think the company is going to have much leverage with this new Jazz contract being accepted. With upgrades in less than a year again, and about three years to getting on with AC, I don't see why anyone would go to Encore anymore. They're going to have to keep the One List just to stop the bleeding, let alone attract new pilots who are willing to wait five or six years to flow.
Also, anyone taking the advice of OTS pilots like Mr North who stand to gain from the demise of the One List should take it with a grain of salt. It is far from unbiased, and far from sources of information regarding Encore negotiations.
---------- ADS -----------
  

DropTanks
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 215
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:56 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by DropTanks »

.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by DropTanks on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hangry
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 192
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:05 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Hangry »

Yieldermatik wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:39 pm
I don’t think he meant to use the word parachute in a demeaning way.
sstaurus wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:39 pm
Droptanks your post is confusing. You seem to think Flow and the One List are 'kinda the same thing', then proceed to explain that they are not. They are not the same at all. And it is far from a done deal.

Flow is just hiring. The company can hire from wherever. Those who flowed before the new contract, get to keep their place. Now, nobody knows if DOH will be preserved for anyone who follows. There are Direct hires to mainline (of which you seem to be, correct me if I'm wrong) who take issue with the fact that all of Encore is ahead of them, which could delay their upgrade for untold years. However, anyone hired direct knew this when they were hired, which is why I also take issue with the term 'parachute', which I feel is dismissive of everyone at Encore. Everyone who came to Encore came here as a means to an end. Put your time in in the trenches and you'll get to go to mainline, with some semblance of reward (DOH) for your time put in at Westjet. This is what is at risk of being taken away.

The format is quote then type.
:roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Yieldermatik
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Yieldermatik »

Really you wasted a post for that? 🤣🤣
Hangry wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:52 pm
Yieldermatik wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:39 pm
I don’t think he meant to use the word parachute in a demeaning way.
sstaurus wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:39 pm
Droptanks your post is confusing. You seem to think Flow and the One List are 'kinda the same thing', then proceed to explain that they are not. They are not the same at all. And it is far from a done deal.

Flow is just hiring. The company can hire from wherever. Those who flowed before the new contract, get to keep their place. Now, nobody knows if DOH will be preserved for anyone who follows. There are Direct hires to mainline (of which you seem to be, correct me if I'm wrong) who take issue with the fact that all of Encore is ahead of them, which could delay their upgrade for untold years. However, anyone hired direct knew this when they were hired, which is why I also take issue with the term 'parachute', which I feel is dismissive of everyone at Encore. Everyone who came to Encore came here as a means to an end. Put your time in in the trenches and you'll get to go to mainline, with some semblance of reward (DOH) for your time put in at Westjet. This is what is at risk of being taken away.

The format is quote then type.
:roll:
---------- ADS -----------
  

doiwannabeapilot
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:46 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

Word on the street is 50% pay raise, years of service.
Grooming still though, it's a first contract.
---------- ADS -----------
  

sstaurus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by sstaurus »

HA. It's true, there's a TA coming. But no one will see it for a couple of weeks. Until then it's all wishful thinking.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Freeport_Flyer
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:30 am

Re: Encore contract negotiations

Post by Freeport_Flyer »

doiwannabeapilot wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:01 pm
Word on the street is 50% pay raise, years of service.
Grooming still though, it's a first contract.
Ha ha ha! April fool's day was the 1st... A 50% bump would have Encore making more than Mainline! Maybe a 50 cent / hr bump.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet Encore”