Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

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TheRealMcCoy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

So you're completely ignoring my comment even though I've been to one of these so called "top tier" schools? And I was in the Air Force, don't even get me started at that institution...

Keep drinking the kool aid there chum.
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

TheRealMcCoy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:22 pm So you're completely ignoring my comment even though I've been to one of these so called "top tier" schools? And I was in the Air Force, don't even get me started at that institution...

Keep drinking the kool aid there chum.
Yes, I tend to ignore people who call people “idiots” on forums. Call me back when you can muster more respect for your colleagues.
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

iflyforpie wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:58 pm
L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:14 pm Better not book on a Dash 8, Q400, B737 either as Jazz, Sunwings, (and I believe but not entirely sure) Porter and Encore hire straight out of Seneca and Mount Royal. These carriers obviously think highly of the product that these and other schools produce.
I'm sure their FMS button pushing and FMC SPD | LNAV | VNAV PATH skills are just awesome, but as far as airmanship, communications, airlaw, and plain situational awareness go they are sorely lacking.

It's a money grab... plain and simple.
Of course they wouldn’t have the airmanship, etc compared to someone who has been flying for years. That’s not a particularly profound observation. But what the young aviators have is the chance to make many of those mistakes in a simulator rather than on the line. I hope that we can agree that there is value to simulator training.

As far as those Dash 8, Saab and 737 incidents, how do you know that these aren’t pilots with thousands of hours of experience and not some newbie? Hell, I screwed up a taxi in Copenhagen a couple of years ago and combined the FO and I we had about 35,000 hours of flying experience on the flight deck that day. I can happen to anyone.

Money grab? What’s 100 hours of CRJ/King Air simulator time with experienced pilot instructors worth per pilot? $15,000 ($150/person/hour)? The entire tuition is less than that. I would submit that this is an incredible bargain.
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Last edited by L39Guy on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TheRealMcCoy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:37 pmYes, I tend to ignore people who call people “idiots” on forums. Call me back when you can muster more respect for your colleagues.
Hahaha, read it again. I wasn't referencing you, or any one person for that matter. Merely stating that a human is the same piece of meat they were going in to school as they were coming out.

It's evident that you are convinced that these are the "best" aviators around, so be it. My, albeit minimal, experience leads me to believe otherwise.
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Napoleon So Low
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:53 pmI would submit that this is an incredible bargain.
Of course you would, you're the one selling it. Some people go out of their way to be polite when they disagree with a poster. Others just call a shill a shill. You are a very good writer. I suspect you've had some professional sales training. You must be very disappointed your cleverly disguised advertisement hasn't produced the desired result.
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jt8d
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d »

L39 wrote:

"Onboard" is actually spelled "on board". Also, you capitization after ... is inconsistent.

Yup..
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR »

It's a money grab... plain and simple.
Which is not entirely bad, it just depends upon whose money, and who's grabbing. If our fellow Canadians have a good international market, and our industry is an export training business, that employs Canadians, and I'm all for that. If the foreign students come with full pockets, and we Canadians can do good business, good for us! Those foreign students may come from a part of the world where there is no alternative means to enter aviation - okay, follow our path!

However, for we Canadians, flying is opportune in many ways, including building experience "privately" with one's own airplane, so don't discount those other paths to being a professional pilot. Candidates who are already in Canada have choices they should understand, and the resulting cost/benefit to them.
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

[/quote]Hahaha, read it again. I wasn't referencing you, or any one person for that matter. Merely stating that a human is the same piece of meat they were going in to school as they were coming out.

It's evident that you are convinced that these are the "best" aviators around, so be it. My, albeit minimal, experience leads me to believe otherwise.
[/quote]

So you think that nothing is gained by increasing one's knowledge level and experience by doing classroom and simulator work? I am afraid that is not the case in any field. Assuming the material and delivery is pertinent and effective, I would submit that the eight months in this program is time and money well spent.

I never claimed that these are the "best aviators" around but I do claim, based upon my non-minimal experience (36 of professional flying/26,000 hours), that the aviation colleges produce an excellent product, particularly when one considers how few hours they have. This is not unlike the military where a 200 hour or so pilot goes onto to fly fast jets (solo) or C130's, C17's, Airbus A310's as a first tour.

And, as I remarked earlier, one will get some outliers (the 1%) where you wonder how they ever made it through training but I will say this about the military and the aviation colleges: they do an excellent job of filtering. No one filters in the private/multi/IFR/commercial route; you pay your money and you get your endorsements.

It is for all of these reasons why I completely understand why 705 air carriers like pilots that come from these sources and give them preference in hiring - the reputable schools produce a known and respected product. I would also submit too that the aviation colleges guard their reputations carefully and they would be hesitant to graduate someone that risks tarnishing their reputation.
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jt8d
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d »

You got stats on how many of these students from that 8-month airline ops @ seneca course go on to flow through to 705 ops with their 250tt? Just seems like you're pitching this as a total flow through program? Don't be getting kids' hopes up L39. I got a paper degree from an aviation university somewhere in a box in storage. It's comforting to know it will come in handy if I decide to apply to main lines. A fallback I can recommend... but there's no need at all to take this 8-month course! If it was a legit course... you would come out with a dash 8 PPC! 100 hours on what? Maybe I should start a school out of my living room... and offer extensive training on my laptop simulator.. lol.. FMS experience is FMS experience... new pilot could tick that box from my living room.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by iflyforpie »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:53 pm
Of course they wouldn’t have the airmanship, etc compared to someone who has been flying for years. That’s not a particularly profound observation. But what the young aviators have is the chance to make many of those mistakes in a simulator rather than on the line. I hope that we can agree that there is value to simulator training.
Then what on earth are they doing flying hundreds of people around? When the captain is only a couple years removed from his initial training. That’s why nothing replaces experience.
As far as those Dash 8, Saab and 737 incidents, how do you know that these aren’t pilots with thousands of hours of experience and not some newbie? Hell, I screwed up a taxi in Copenhagen a couple of years ago and combined the FO and I we had about 35,000 hours of flying experience on the flight deck that day. I can happen to anyone.
These weren’t simple mistakes... which we all make. These were lapses in what’s supposed to be common knowledge or actions taken with ample warnings from other parties. If someone asks you a question, or does something different than you’re planning on doing, an experienced pilot will at least stop and consider it.

Sure... I don’t know what the experience level of the individuals are... but man is it ever common. Just today:

“Are you planning on getting visual? Because if not I’ll have to climb you for outbound traffic.”
“Uh yeah... we got visual for a bit but were waiting for another break in the clouds.”
“Well I’ll need you to cancel IFR in a minute or I’ll have to climb you.”
“Uh... can we get the contact approach so I can find a hole to go through? [I don’t know that you need to protect the entire airspace below me to do it]”
“Unable any approach due outbound traffic, I need you to cancel IFR in 30 seconds”
“Ok, we’ll cancel IFR”
“You need to be below 12,500 to cancel IFR”.
“Ok we’re descending [probably in and out of cloud in poor visibility with huge terrain in the area] and we can cancel IFR.”

This wasn’t a Navajo or a King Air or 1900. This was a Dash 8 with the logo of a national airline on it. Does that sound like a surplus of experience in the cockpit or something that a simulator would remedy?
Money grab? What’s 100 hours of CRJ/King Air simulator time with experienced pilot instructors worth per pilot? $15,000 ($150/person/hour)? The entire tuition is less than that. I would submit that this is an incredible bargain.
Retail price? I would imagine that it’s worth a ton. So is 100,000 square feet of tile flooring or 25 cords of firewood or 1000 yards of drainage rock.

Actual worth to a new pilot that’s going to be saturated going through most of it, and then have to be untrained for the actual plane they are going to be flying, which will be provided by the company they work for? Not worth what they are charging.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Napoleon So Low
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low »

He's a good writer, though. His spelling and grammar is impeccable. Which is why I don't believe he's a line pilot. This guy doesn't write like a line pilot, he writes like a SALESMAN. Line pilots just ain't that good. :mrgreen:
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jt8d
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d »

Wait a sec... he used "Sunwings" twice.... I have never heard a pilot call Sunwing Sunwings... more reason to speculate shillage

Edit: i wanted to add :rolleyes:
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TheStig
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by TheStig »

Just for a second take a moment to consider that L39Guy might actually be a 787 Captain (and Engineer, who owns his own firm and who flies his own L39 for fun) who wanted to share his observations from his life time of experience in the Canadian aviation industry.

Even though I don't know L39guy personally, it's easy to recognize his willingness to get into the mud a debate from other private groups.
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Napoleon So Low
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low »

Or, on the other hand, he might be a kid typing on a computer in his mommy's basement who has never been within 100 yards of an airplane.

This is the internet, where anyone can be anyone.

When someone shows up on a forum and his first post is basically an advertisement for a certain college program, a healthy dose of skepticism is recommended.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR »

This is the internet, where anyone can be anyone.
Yeah... I like to think of entering a discussion in an internet forum, kinda like walking into a room as an unknown new guest. Sure, it's okay to speak to people, but it's better to start off easy, and save the big pronouncements until you've established yourself a little - like getting to know some of the people in the room by listening to them for a while, or having a few hundred low provocativty posts first!

I do recall my sense of foolishness elsewhere many years back, when I followed with considerable interest, the posts of a "Captain xxxx", he/she seemed to write with knowledge. After some time, I happened upon a recent post in which the Captain proudly announced that he/she had just flown their first solo! After that, I committed myself lest to people's posts, until I was much more convinced that they had the actual experience that they pronounced.

I can report with delight, that every AvCanada person I have met in person has been very nice, and forthright. Some more passionate than others (like a certain variable tailwind investigator - but hey, he has the passion!). I've never met a fake in person, so I suppose if they're out there, they're laying low in person.
He's a good writer, though. His spelling and grammar is impeccable. Which is why I don't believe he's a line pilot. This guy doesn't write like a line pilot,.......
Okay, you got me on this one, I risk being similarly labeled, I really do try to use English correctly - and I've never been a line pilot .....

But, I'm not trying to sell anything, other than the idea of safe flying!
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C.W.E.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

What would be nice would be a separate place where posters could ask questions and get answers from qualified members that are approved by the owner of the site based on knowing their qualifications.

For instance I have met PilotDar and know he is a qualified design approval representative so he can answer questions concerning aircraft design specs.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR »

And I have met C.W.E. and know him to be very experienced in answering questions about flying technique, and pilot training on multiple, and unusual types - land and water.

Sadly, it will not be possible to meet all of the interesting people who participate here, but I will always want to present the truth, be it written, or in person - from me, it will be the same truth, and based upon what I know.

On topic, I know that a month or so ago, I flew a number of circuits with an instructor, in a 172, at Peterborough, for the purpose of a check flight, and while I flew, all of Seneca's 172's were parked. I was told it's because they would not fly in those winds - I took it to be true, having no other logical explanation. The winds were within the demonstrated capacity of a 172 - so Seneca weren't training the candidates on crosswind technique, on a nice day, with winds within the numbers for the 172? In fairness, they were flying a Baron. Candidate pilots must be challenged during their learning, crosswinds challenge appropriately. So, my impression of Seneca's training is not perfect..... But, I guess they're the training experts rather than me, providing the product (trained pilot) that their clients (Dash 8 right seats?) are looking for.....
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

TheStig wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:06 am Just for a second take a moment to consider that L39Guy might actually be a 787 Captain (and Engineer, who owns his own firm and who flies his own L39 for fun) who wanted to share his observations from his life time of experience in the Canadian aviation industry.

Even though I don't know L39guy personally, it's easy to recognize his willingness to get into the mud a debate from other private groups.
You have outed me, sigh. I am no shill nor a marketing guy, I am no teenager with a keyboard contrary to the accusations on this forum.

My intent in creating this thread was solely to raise awareness of this program at Seneca which, in my opinion, is a fabulous opportunity for someone who wishes to become a professional airline pilot but did not get their ratings and post secondary education from an integrated program but rather from other sources.

Part of my intent is due to how the industry is evolving and sadly that is being demonstrated in spades with the B737 MAX issue; I won't get into that in detail here but I have been contributing on PPRUNE https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/619 ... a-208.html extensively on that with the same alias if you care to read it.

Flying is dangerous, damn dangerous. Technology and nice, shiny new aircraft are great however they are not perfect. And what helps keep the industry safe is highly trained airline pilots that understand aircraft systems, crew resource management, hands and feet flying skills, etc. While experience (flying hours) are fine, classroom learning is a means to replace flying experience by learning others lessons without anyone getting hurt. Analyzing previous accidents, understanding aircraft systems, understanding human psychology, understanding aircraft performance are all valuable skills that yield benefits "on the line".

Making mistakes in the simulator is the best place to make them, not in the real aircraft and the simulator program and scenarios offered in this program are first rate. Those of us that have spent lots in time in simulators know that one can do a lot of training (learning) with scenarios that one would not dare to do in the real aircraft. Yes, simulator time is not flying experience but I would submit that 100 hours of intensive simulator training is more valuable than 1,000 hours of cruising along straight-and-level. At the same time, I acknowledge that there is nothing like real world experience either, particularly scaring one's self every so often just to be reminded that this is not a game and flying is potentially lethal.

Anyone that has read the recent parliamentary committee report on flight training (https://copanational.org/en/2019/04/11/ ... r-20190412) will see that more credit should be given to alternative means of training. And, given the high cost of renting aircraft, this also makes sense economically too.

The vitrol that followed my first posting was shocking but not surprising either; I guess it is the nature of the beast when one participates on these forums. I find it ironic that one of the recent posters suggested that I was a teenager with a computer posting idiot ideas. I cannot help but suspect that some of those directing churlish comments my way when all I was trying to do was bring awareness to a superb training opportunity are the teenagers in their parent's basement.

Over and out.
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airway
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by airway »

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but this is not a Diploma. It is a Graduate Certificate.

It does not tick the Diploma box.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Zaibatsu »

All the more reason not to waste any money on it.
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