English Vs French on the Radio.

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ahramin
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by ahramin »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:42 pm
ahramin wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:29 pm
If you are going to make a safety case for language, your first step should be to quantify how many accidents there are, and how many of them are due to the language issue you are talking about. Not all language issues, just the one you are claiming is unsafe.
Actually I don't have to. It's completely obvious, that a circuit on a busy Saturday with 8 aircraft, all speaking English in a clear, understandable matter, would be much safer than 4 speaking English and 4 speaking French, all stepping on each other and asking "repeat".
I'll admit I'm having trouble following you. Is this happening at the Carp airport or is this a hypothetical example? I don't know your area at all.

If your entire argument is that it would be safer if everyone spoke the same language on the radio, I'm forced to agree. It would also be safer if everyone installed TCAS. We can spend all day listing things that would make aviation safer, starting with grounding all non 705 aircraft and every pilot without an ATPL.

Without being able to say HOW unsafe something is (by pointing out the actual consequences) it's not enough to say safety would be improved therefore the rules should change. Again, it's completely obvious that a pilot with a Commercial Licence level of experience and training is safer than a Private Pilot with 45 hours. Does it then follow that the rules should be changed to eliminate the Private Pilot Licence?

So again, you claim that we should change the rules on which languages are used on the radio. Do you realize this is the same claim Air Canada pilots made over 40 years ago when they went on strike over this very issue? It was the same case you are making today. "If French is allowed on the radio, there are going to be fatal crashes, people are going to be killed". 40 years later, no accidents. Does it really make sense to bring up the same opinion over and over again when history has already proven that opinion wrong?

If there is a recent accident with French as a contributing factor that I am unaware of by all means bring up the subject. Perhaps pointing out that traffic levels are higher than before and that what was working before is no longer working. But if you're going to try to get Transport Canada to change the rules because "It's obviously safer", don't expect to convince anyone but the echo chamber.
rookiepilot wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:42 pmAnd to reiterate-- I've heard it well, well into Ontario....
First of all, it sounds like the airspace you are talking about doesn't even require a radio, let alone position reports. There is uncontrolled airspace where position reports are required (MF), are you claiming some pilots are making those position reports in French outside of Québec? Or is it just that you hear French on the radio? If the latter, how would you know where they are? I believe this was your point so how are you claiming you know where they are? How many NM are "well, well into Ontario"? How high were you?
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by rookiepilot »

ahramin wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:10 pm

If your entire argument is that it would be safer if everyone spoke the same language on the radio, I'm forced to agree. It would also be safer if everyone installed TCAS. We can spend all day listing things that would make aviation safer, starting with grounding all non 705 aircraft and every pilot without an ATPL.

Perhaps pointing out that traffic levels are higher than before
Unlike your other examples:

Having everyone who Can speak English -- be obgligated to do so -- costs nothing except people's pride.

It's hard to believe Ottawa based pilots can't speak English. Yet it's a flurry of French on the radio going into that area. I don't know about the carp accident. I do wonder.

Digits is absolutely correct on these points.


To answer, I know enough French to make out position reports, with difficulty (and a headache) . We are talking easily 100 nm into Ontario, maybe more. Very common in Eastern Ontario.

I've expressed my opinion on NORDO before. Not what's required, it's what's smart, in both cases.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by C.W.E. »

I have flown in many countries in my career so far and in most every country, ATC will speak in both English and the native language. Never had safety issues, even when I didn’t understand the local language. Uncomfortable? Yes. Unsafe? No.

I agree totally having spent decades flying in over sixty different countries without ever having a language safety problem.
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ahramin
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by ahramin »

So if I understand correctly rookiepilot, you're not suggesting an end to French on the radio? Just an end to French on the radio by those capable of speaking English? That's always been my position, and I've had to tell a few morons that I'm a professional pilot here to do a job, not play the clown (I'm not super popular at work, la faute a qui?)

But it sounds like you are talking about the weekend warrior crowd. Seems like a pretty big waste of time advocating this change of rules. How are you going to determine who is able to speak English and who's English is poor enough that they are allowed to use French? What about all the airspace that doesn't require position reports but still benefit from them? If they are that stubborn, I doubt they'll make position reports in English when none are required.

It sounds like a net decrease in safety rather than an increase.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by rookiepilot »

Not advocating an impractical change in any "rules".

Maybe people will instead think about what they are doing out there.

Use common sense.

Quiet circuit? Do whatever you want for all I care.

Nutty circuit or area? Use more common sense, Nordo, language, or still the all time favorite--- ACTPA!

I will say -- you're right good luck changing the weekend fliers -- but why the pros do this too, I don't get at all, which is why I raised it in the first place
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:05 pm Partly because most people can understand.
Honest question: wouldn't an English transmission be understood by more people, even in Quebec?

I admit my encounters with Quebec pilots are limited, but all pilots I've met know English. Is it common for Quebec people to understand English?
English pilots flying in Quebec usually don't understand French enough though.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:38 pm Not advocating an impractical change in any "rules".
We misunderstood. You did write "Why is English not mandatory on the radio in Canada?" That does sound like you want to change the rules to make it mandatory.

What are you advocating for?
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by rookiepilot »

Common sense, which even mentioning is as obviously a waste of time as advocating a rule change.

I actually asked some questions, which of course go unanswered
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by ahramin »

Your common sense doesn't have much sense, but I'll agree on the waste of time. However, if you really want to know, the main reason the French are so rabid about speaking French on the radio is because they keep getting attacked for speaking French.

If you don't know how this all started, I'll try to sum up though my history lesson is distant and I'm fuzzy on some details. English used to be the only language in aviation in Canada. We were a bilingual nation, but not in the air. Then one day a French controller said to another French controller sitting next to him "L'avion blablabla va faire bloubloublou" and the supervisor overheard them. Of course this was totally VERBOTEN (there's really no English word that conveys the proper level Forbidenness). Both controllers were suspended or censured or something because "French is unsafe in aviation" (sounds like familiar not so sensical common sense). So the union or civil liberties association or local militia or whatever took up a call to arms over the issue and after Transport Canada failed to resolve it quickly Trudeau stepped in and mandated the creation of the current system (French allowed and required to be available for all level of service in Québec and Ottawa). Anglophone pilots went on strike, Ontario politicians went bananas, but Trudeau being a true federalist felt that it was important not to piss off the Québecers over small issues with little benefit. Keep in mind that if the original supervisor had used some common sense, we mightn't be here today and non English speakers might well be relegated to non towered airports in Québec.

So I can understand why over 40 years of continued and common nonsense of "French on the radio is dangerous" and "There's going to be an accident" has made them a little deranged to the point where they feel they need to speak French on the radio to prove a point. Maybe if some common sense is used in the next 40 years to say "geez, it makes ME uncomfortable but it makes a lot of THEM more comfortable and there's absolutely no data to support my point of view, maybe I'll just leave it alone" and everyone stops trying to force them to stop when they know it's not going to happen, maybe, just maybe, they'll give it up and choose the safer option. Maybe ... but we're talking about a nation that have Je Me Souvien on their licence plate parbleu. I mean they're still talking about how some farmers with muskets got their asses kicked sur les plaines d'Abraham by British Red Coats. Red Coats for smegs sake. Professional soldiers that could fire 4 rounds a minute and if you killed half of them, would respond by closing up ranks and continue firing. Against farmers with minimal training, none of it with live rounds.

It's as bad as those phsycho Air Canada pilots still monumentally pissed 20 years later that they didn't get to destroy the careers of their peers at Canadian and instead were expected to act like adults and make the best of an unfortunate situation.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by Braun »

Geee, thanks for quoting me and starting a bonfire. I've read enough of your posts here and there to not get into an argument with you, you're clearly more knowledgeable on what is safer and better for us. So thanks! I'll make sure the whole VFR GA population that doesn't speak English in Quebec (and yes there are people who don't speak English to an adequate level) stop flying and attend your language and communication school.

Honestly, I'd be happy to just get adequate readbacks (in whatever language) by ''professional'' pilots. To me that is much more of a safety issue.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

Braun wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:00 pm Geee, thanks for quoting me and starting a bonfire. I've read enough of your posts here and there to not get into an argument with you, you're clearly more knowledgeable on what is safer and better for us. So thanks! I'll make sure the whole VFR GA population that doesn't speak English in Quebec (and yes there are people who don't speak English to an adequate level) stop flying and attend your language and communication school.

Honestly, I'd be happy to just get adequate readbacks (in whatever language) by ''professional'' pilots. To me that is much more of a safety issue.
Braun,

I have no idea if your native tongue is English or Français.
Your previous response on another recent thread was read and most appreciated by myself as I too have always wondered about odd vectors into YUL.

The above post above yours is either a rant or a clever rambling to infuse some humour into this discussion.

I take no issue to either. (Although he could have been kind in posting said message in both Official languages) 8)

My fellow brethern,

Can we put this non issue to rest already?

Merci à tous!

TPC
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by Heliian »

If you cannot understand, ask them to repeat in English.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by Jet Jockey »

ahramin wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:34 pm It's as bad as those phsycho Air Canada pilots still monumentally pissed 20 years later that they didn't get to destroy the careers of their peers at Canadian and instead were expected to act like adults and make the best of an unfortunate situation.

OMFG... I almost sh!t my pants, too funny!

Having friends that worked at Air Canada and Canadian at the time (and still are) this is right on... Can’t believe how arrogant the pr!cks at Air Canada were.

Anyway, I’m not going to debate on this subject too long and all I’m going to say is that I totally agree with the use of French for communications in the air whether in controlled or uncontrolled airspace in Quebec and perhaps Ottawa!

Having worked in Europe for 3 years and having flown all over the world where local languages are also used at all sorts of airports, I cannot agree with the philosophy that only “English” should be used. There are many areas of the world where locals, even airline pilots are not proficient in english or not enough to communicate properly so it makes sense for them to talk to ATC or do position reports in their own language.

Now, If I find myself in a situation where an anglo only pilot communicates on a MF freq going into an uncontrolled airport in Quebec, I will do my position reports both in French and English as a professional courtesy... I will also interact with the the anglo pilot in english to avoid any distress to him.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by rookiepilot »

ahramin wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:34 pm Your common sense doesn't have much sense, but I'll agree on the waste of time. However, if you really want to know, the main reason the French are so rabid about speaking French on the radio is because they keep getting attacked for speaking French.

If you don't know how this all started, I'll try to sum up though my history lesson is distant and I'm fuzzy on some details. English used to be the only language in aviation in Canada. We were a bilingual nation, but not in the air. Then one day a French controller said to another French controller sitting next to him "L'avion blablabla va faire bloubloublou" and the supervisor overheard them. Of course this was totally VERBOTEN (there's really no English word that conveys the proper level Forbidenness). Both controllers were suspended or censured or something because "French is unsafe in aviation" (sounds like familiar not so sensical common sense). So the union or civil liberties association or local militia or whatever took up a call to arms over the issue and after Transport Canada failed to resolve it quickly Trudeau stepped in and mandated the creation of the current system (French allowed and required to be available for all level of service in Québec and Ottawa). Anglophone pilots went on strike, Ontario politicians went bananas, but Trudeau being a true federalist felt that it was important not to piss off the Québecers over small issues with little benefit. Keep in mind that if the original supervisor had used some common sense, we mightn't be here today and non English speakers might well be relegated to non towered airports in Québec.

So I can understand why over 40 years of continued and common nonsense of "French on the radio is dangerous" and "There's going to be an accident" has made them a little deranged to the point where they feel they need to speak French on the radio to prove a point. Maybe if some common sense is used in the next 40 years to say "geez, it makes ME uncomfortable but it makes a lot of THEM more comfortable and there's absolutely no data to support my point of view, maybe I'll just leave it alone" and everyone stops trying to force them to stop when they know it's not going to happen, maybe, just maybe, they'll give it up and choose the safer option. Maybe ... but we're talking about a nation that have Je Me Souvien on their licence plate parbleu. I mean they're still talking about how some farmers with muskets got their asses kicked sur les plaines d'Abraham by British Red Coats. Red Coats for smegs sake. Professional soldiers that could fire 4 rounds a minute and if you killed half of them, would respond by closing up ranks and continue firing. Against farmers with minimal training, none of it with live rounds.

It's as bad as those phsycho Air Canada pilots still monumentally pissed 20 years later that they didn't get to destroy the careers of their peers at Canadian and instead were expected to act like adults and make the best of an unfortunate situation.
Actually I was unaware of the history on this issue. So thanks for this. Most interesting.

FWIW--- to everyone as it seems I've stirred the hornets nest over language rights: :roll:

I don't have any particular issue with pilots using French in Quebec controlled or otherwise. Ok? Peace?

In Ontario -- which I repeatedly referenced was the basis of my own experiences -- and particularly west of Ottawa, might be a different story.

Now I'm off to my Mandarin class, so I can use that the next time I fly to BC....... :mrgreen:
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by photofly »

I don't have any particular issue with pilots using French in Quebec controlled or otherwise. Ok? Peace?

In Ontario -- which I repeatedly referenced was the basis of my own experiences -- and particularly west of Ottawa, might be a different story.
Why the distinction? It's a safety issue, right? Language misunderstandings that cause accidents don't stop at provincial boundaries so why are you only concerned in Ontario?
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by ahramin »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:26 amIn Ontario -- which I repeatedly referenced was the basis of my own experiences -- and particularly west of Ottawa, might be a different story.
So do share your experience. If there is an actual problem as you claim then the more people who know about it the better. Transport Canada has been know to take up issues like this with circulars and information drives. Transport Canada routinely requires the bilingual airlines in Canada to publish memos reminding everyone not to use French unless both crews understand. I'd like to support your position but you're not making it possible. You have referenced a midair in Carp but there doesn't seem to be anything pertaining to that midair that supports your argument. You have claimed that pilots are speaking French on the radio in other parts of Ontario, but I can't seem to wrap my head around how you know they are in Ontario since they are speaking French and the whole problem with French on the radio seems to be that you don't know where they are.

Other than Trumpisms stating that you know it's happening or Rumsfeldian hypotheticals, please share your actual relevant experiences so that the rest of us can share your concerns.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by TG »

Jet Jockey wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:24 am having flown all over the world where local languages are also used at all sorts of airports, I cannot agree with the philosophy that only “English” should be used. There are many areas of the world where locals, even airline pilots are not proficient in english or not enough to communicate properly so it makes sense for them to talk to ATC or do position reports in their own language.
Very true!
I recall asking permission to speak in French with Bamako's tower one time (Mali has French as official language) Since none of us in the cockpit could figure out what he was "saying" in English.
"None" is including one English speaking only guy! And boom! Communication problems solved :mrgreen:
Same thing in Annaba, Algeria, which truly cut short 50% of our radio's exchanges, confusion and all...

I recon they are extreme examples. Just that sometime it is safer to let it done in Native official language when English proficiency is well below par.
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by ahramin »

Ha, just try to figure out what the controllers in Edinburgh are saying.

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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by rookiepilot »

The point is, ever exercising one's "rights" in aviation, in any regard, at the willful expense of safety, is being a jerk.

The regs should mean bare minimum to a safe pilot.

Airmanship should be everything, and it really sucks in so many ways, (that I've personally observed) because of everyone's preoccupation with their "rights".
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Re: English Vs French on the Radio.

Post by AuxBatOn »

Again, either provide facts (incident/accident reports with language as a root cause or contributing factors) or first hand experiences where language was a safety issue, not your relatively inexperienced aviator’s opinion.
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