Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Canopy, Controls, Flaps, Trim, Hook, Harness, Brakes, Seat.
A single checklist won’t be relevant for all types. The important is to know what is critical on you type and check these items before takeoff.
I personally don’t use checklists per se. I memorize them in a flow but dont reference them airborne, unless it is for dealing with non-critical emergencies.
A single checklist won’t be relevant for all types. The important is to know what is critical on you type and check these items before takeoff.
I personally don’t use checklists per se. I memorize them in a flow but dont reference them airborne, unless it is for dealing with non-critical emergencies.
Going for the deck at corner
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Out of curiosity, will the CF18 move with the brakes locked? Basically, if you forget the parking brake and give-er for take-off, will it skid all the way to lift off?
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Xander, why APU off?
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
The parking and emergency brake is the same handle. You have to turn 90 degrees before you pull to engage the parking brake. A straight pull will engage emergency brakes. With emergency brake, you lose anti-skid. This is the concern on takeoff: that the handle is stowed, not pulled, even the tiniest pull (in both cockpits if flying a two-seater), to make sure you have anti-skid in case of a takeoff abort.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2019 3:24 pmOut of curiosity, will the CF18 move with the brakes locked? Basically, if you forget the parking brake and give-er for take-off, will it skid all the way to lift off?
To answer your question, no. You would drag the brakes but it would be painfully obvious and would likely never reach takeoff speed.
Going for the deck at corner
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Because in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.
Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.
Also it burns fuel for no reason.
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
So translation: nothing will really happen if you forget about it on takeoff?Xander wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 6:17 amBecause in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.
Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.
Also it burns fuel for no reason.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
If possibly exceeding the aircraft’s limitations is nothing for you, then yeah.digits_ wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 8:50 amSo translation: nothing will really happen if you forget about it on takeoff?Xander wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 6:17 amBecause in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.
Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.
Also it burns fuel for no reason.
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Thank you.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
To answer the original question: I don't check anything extra in airplanes where the checklist has to be used. Follow the checklist. If you follow the checklist and then do your own killer item checklist, you won't be paying attention to the real checklist too much, since you'll subconciously think "I do my own checklist anyway". If you miss items on a checklist that often, then something is seriously wrong with either your SOPs, CRM procedures or checklist.
It's like people who do their own extra "gear down 3 green" check on short final, 10 seconds after the company checklist called for that anyway
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Yeah?goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.
Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.
Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.
Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:
« What items do you double check before takeoff ».
That’s the way I read it anyway.
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
It's like people who do their own extra "gear down 3 green" check on short final,
I always do a short final check for landing to confirm I have the correct gear position.
It is.
" Where am I landing and where is my gear. "
It has saved me landing with the wrong gear position twice.
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Place me in the "Gear in the green" camp on short final.
Years ago, doing multiple closed patterns in a T-33, a friend of mine landed with the wheels securely tucked in the wells. When later asked what had happened, my friend didn't sugar coat it: "I guess I forgot to put them down..." Saved a lot of investigation time.
On the T-bird, gear was dropped opposite the button and upon receiving the "3 green" indication, the landing gear handle was given a "shake" test to ensure it was where it was supposed to be. Something interrupted this sequence with predictable results. (In your mind, when you're convinced you've done something, it takes a two times four upside the head to change that conviction...) (;>0)
A final check on short final would have caught the error.
Years ago, doing multiple closed patterns in a T-33, a friend of mine landed with the wheels securely tucked in the wells. When later asked what had happened, my friend didn't sugar coat it: "I guess I forgot to put them down..." Saved a lot of investigation time.
On the T-bird, gear was dropped opposite the button and upon receiving the "3 green" indication, the landing gear handle was given a "shake" test to ensure it was where it was supposed to be. Something interrupted this sequence with predictable results. (In your mind, when you're convinced you've done something, it takes a two times four upside the head to change that conviction...) (;>0)
A final check on short final would have caught the error.
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Just before takeoff I recheck the Takeoff performance. That’s in addition to the 5+ times it gets checked or cross checked in the SOPs. Just one final check to make sure we’re not 100 tonnes out. It wouldn’t be the first time that happened if we were. Also recheck gear and flaps on short final despite the airplane telling me they’re down.
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Right in the first post, the OP uses the example of a home built taking off with the fuel selector in the off position. That's a pretty big killer item. You've got 33000' to notice the APU is running before it even warns you that it's on, and can still turn it off. If it's something you personally check, then it's probably a good idea, but don't pretend it's a killer item.Xander wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 6:29 pmYeah?goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.
Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.
Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.
Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:
« What items do you double check before takeoff ».
That’s the way I read it anyway.
I usually look for weak spots in the aircraft design, SOPs and checklists. If there's something I don't like, I'll add a personal "double check". Could be the APU if the SOPs and company checklists are inadequate to prevent what you describe. Not necessarily killer items, but an error regardless. My current aircraft type and SOPs are quite good and catching anything close to a killer item. From the flows, to checklist and various aircraft warning systems, they're covered multiple times.
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Much of this sounds a bit like having checklists to check the checklists. If there really are items you need to have an internal checklist to cover (not things you do just for your own peace of mind) then shouldn't you be reporting it to the company you work for or the people who own the aircraft you're flying and get the checklists revised? If it's something you actually need to do, then shouldn't it also be needed by anyone else in that aircraft?
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!
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“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Since i've just done a runup before takeoff, I expect the critical things are already checked... It runs, it runs at elevated power setting, mixture can shut the engine off, flaps set for t/o, etc.
Last check before rolling out is BBBD, Belts (on and tight) Baggage (secured) Brakes (work) Doors (closed and locked), a final check that they're all where they should be. After that, I recite the two takeoff emergency mnemonics to try and have them ready in my mind if needed:
EFOTO:TSB - Engine Failure On Take Off - Throttle back, Stick back, Brake to a stop
EFATO:SLAM - Engine Failure After Take Off - Straight ahead, Level wings, Airspeed (to best glide), Mayday
Last check before rolling out is BBBD, Belts (on and tight) Baggage (secured) Brakes (work) Doors (closed and locked), a final check that they're all where they should be. After that, I recite the two takeoff emergency mnemonics to try and have them ready in my mind if needed:
EFOTO:TSB - Engine Failure On Take Off - Throttle back, Stick back, Brake to a stop
EFATO:SLAM - Engine Failure After Take Off - Straight ahead, Level wings, Airspeed (to best glide), Mayday
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Still an undesired aircraft state. A mild one i'll give you that, much less critical than a fuel selector.goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2019 6:54 amRight in the first post, the OP uses the example of a home built taking off with the fuel selector in the off position. That's a pretty big killer item. You've got 33000' to notice the APU is running before it even warns you that it's on, and can still turn it off. If it's something you personally check, then it's probably a good idea, but don't pretend it's a killer item.Xander wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 6:29 pmYeah?goingnowherefast wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.
Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.
Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.
Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:
« What items do you double check before takeoff ».
That’s the way I read it anyway.
I usually look for weak spots in the aircraft design, SOPs and checklists. If there's something I don't like, I'll add a personal "double check". Could be the APU if the SOPs and company checklists are inadequate to prevent what you describe. Not necessarily killer items, but an error regardless. My current aircraft type and SOPs are quite good and catching anything close to a killer item. From the flows, to checklist and various aircraft warning systems, they're covered multiple times.
Forgetting the APU would have a nasty little effect of not decluttering the EICAS, thus possibly reducing situational awareness. I would argue that on a bad day it could be fatal. That's serious enough for my list.
The question was: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff. It's subjective by nature.
If you don't feel like checking that particular item, then so be it, we'll just have to agree to disagree. For me it's justified and will continue to be.
Fly safe.
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
I just call "Release the hounds" and hope she flies.
Illya
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
Another guy who crashed because he didn't check his killer items just before takeoff. If he had taken several seconds, he would have almost certainly have discovered that he forgot to do any checks/checklist at all due to distractions. In this case, it was combined with the fact that he had made an fuel transfer selection on the ground and forgotten about it.
Start at 9:20 of the the video for the cause discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJrVUZKcxrU
Check your killer items just before takeoff.
Start at 9:20 of the the video for the cause discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJrVUZKcxrU
Check your killer items just before takeoff.
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Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?
How about a double check for the runway you're lining up on? There have been numerous cases, especially the old war (triangle) configuration of runways with shared thresholds, that have been problematic to say the least.
Someone once told me, and I will never forget it-"the red handles will hurt you, the white handles will kill you". Lots of checks for the red but the white is a lot more common and can get missed more often in my opinion.
If the spidey sense is tingling, they are my first place to look.
Someone once told me, and I will never forget it-"the red handles will hurt you, the white handles will kill you". Lots of checks for the red but the white is a lot more common and can get missed more often in my opinion.
If the spidey sense is tingling, they are my first place to look.