Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3217
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by AuxBatOn »

Canopy, Controls, Flaps, Trim, Hook, Harness, Brakes, Seat.

A single checklist won’t be relevant for all types. The important is to know what is critical on you type and check these items before takeoff.

I personally don’t use checklists per se. I memorize them in a flow but dont reference them airborne, unless it is for dealing with non-critical emergencies.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by goingnowherefast »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 2:55 pm Canopy, Controls, Flaps, Trim, Hook, Harness, Brakes, Seat.
Out of curiosity, will the CF18 move with the brakes locked? Basically, if you forget the parking brake and give-er for take-off, will it skid all the way to lift off?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PT6-114A
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:06 am
Location: I love the south

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by PT6-114A »

Xander, why APU off?
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3217
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by AuxBatOn »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 3:24 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 2:55 pm Canopy, Controls, Flaps, Trim, Hook, Harness, Brakes, Seat.
Out of curiosity, will the CF18 move with the brakes locked? Basically, if you forget the parking brake and give-er for take-off, will it skid all the way to lift off?
The parking and emergency brake is the same handle. You have to turn 90 degrees before you pull to engage the parking brake. A straight pull will engage emergency brakes. With emergency brake, you lose anti-skid. This is the concern on takeoff: that the handle is stowed, not pulled, even the tiniest pull (in both cockpits if flying a two-seater), to make sure you have anti-skid in case of a takeoff abort.

To answer your question, no. You would drag the brakes but it would be painfully obvious and would likely never reach takeoff speed.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
User avatar
Xander
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:01 pm

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by Xander »

PT6-114A wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:59 pm Xander, why APU off?
Because in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.

Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.

Also it burns fuel for no reason.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by digits_ »

Xander wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:17 am
PT6-114A wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:59 pm Xander, why APU off?
Because in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.

Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.

Also it burns fuel for no reason.
So translation: nothing will really happen if you forget about it on takeoff? :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
Xander
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:01 pm

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by Xander »

digits_ wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 8:50 am
Xander wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:17 am
PT6-114A wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:59 pm Xander, why APU off?
Because in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.

Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.

Also it burns fuel for no reason.
So translation: nothing will really happen if you forget about it on takeoff? :smt040
If possibly exceeding the aircraft’s limitations is nothing for you, then yeah.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by digits_ »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
Thank you.


To answer the original question: I don't check anything extra in airplanes where the checklist has to be used. Follow the checklist. If you follow the checklist and then do your own killer item checklist, you won't be paying attention to the real checklist too much, since you'll subconciously think "I do my own checklist anyway". If you miss items on a checklist that often, then something is seriously wrong with either your SOPs, CRM procedures or checklist.

It's like people who do their own extra "gear down 3 green" check on short final, 10 seconds after the company checklist called for that anyway :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
Xander
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:01 pm

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by Xander »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
Yeah?

It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.

Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.

Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.

Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:

« What items do you double check before takeoff ».

That’s the way I read it anyway.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by C.W.E. »

It's like people who do their own extra "gear down 3 green" check on short final,


I always do a short final check for landing to confirm I have the correct gear position.

It is.

" Where am I landing and where is my gear. "

It has saved me landing with the wrong gear position twice.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Schooner69A
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 551
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: The Okanagan

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by Schooner69A »

Place me in the "Gear in the green" camp on short final.

Years ago, doing multiple closed patterns in a T-33, a friend of mine landed with the wheels securely tucked in the wells. When later asked what had happened, my friend didn't sugar coat it: "I guess I forgot to put them down..." Saved a lot of investigation time.

On the T-bird, gear was dropped opposite the button and upon receiving the "3 green" indication, the landing gear handle was given a "shake" test to ensure it was where it was supposed to be. Something interrupted this sequence with predictable results. (In your mind, when you're convinced you've done something, it takes a two times four upside the head to change that conviction...) (;>0)

A final check on short final would have caught the error.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Joe Blow Schmo
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:48 am

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Just before takeoff I recheck the Takeoff performance. That’s in addition to the 5+ times it gets checked or cross checked in the SOPs. Just one final check to make sure we’re not 100 tonnes out. It wouldn’t be the first time that happened if we were. Also recheck gear and flaps on short final despite the airplane telling me they’re down.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Xander wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:29 pm
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
Yeah?

It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.

Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.

Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.

Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:

« What items do you double check before takeoff ».

That’s the way I read it anyway.
Right in the first post, the OP uses the example of a home built taking off with the fuel selector in the off position. That's a pretty big killer item. You've got 33000' to notice the APU is running before it even warns you that it's on, and can still turn it off. If it's something you personally check, then it's probably a good idea, but don't pretend it's a killer item.

I usually look for weak spots in the aircraft design, SOPs and checklists. If there's something I don't like, I'll add a personal "double check". Could be the APU if the SOPs and company checklists are inadequate to prevent what you describe. Not necessarily killer items, but an error regardless. My current aircraft type and SOPs are quite good and catching anything close to a killer item. From the flows, to checklist and various aircraft warning systems, they're covered multiple times.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
5x5
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1480
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by 5x5 »

Much of this sounds a bit like having checklists to check the checklists. :rolleyes: If there really are items you need to have an internal checklist to cover (not things you do just for your own peace of mind) then shouldn't you be reporting it to the company you work for or the people who own the aircraft you're flying and get the checklists revised? If it's something you actually need to do, then shouldn't it also be needed by anyone else in that aircraft?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2167
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by AirFrame »

Since i've just done a runup before takeoff, I expect the critical things are already checked... It runs, it runs at elevated power setting, mixture can shut the engine off, flaps set for t/o, etc.

Last check before rolling out is BBBD, Belts (on and tight) Baggage (secured) Brakes (work) Doors (closed and locked), a final check that they're all where they should be. After that, I recite the two takeoff emergency mnemonics to try and have them ready in my mind if needed:

EFOTO:TSB - Engine Failure On Take Off - Throttle back, Stick back, Brake to a stop

EFATO:SLAM - Engine Failure After Take Off - Straight ahead, Level wings, Airspeed (to best glide), Mayday
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Xander
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 199
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:01 pm

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by Xander »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 6:54 am
Xander wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:29 pm
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.
Yeah?

It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.

Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.

Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.

Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:

« What items do you double check before takeoff ».

That’s the way I read it anyway.
Right in the first post, the OP uses the example of a home built taking off with the fuel selector in the off position. That's a pretty big killer item. You've got 33000' to notice the APU is running before it even warns you that it's on, and can still turn it off. If it's something you personally check, then it's probably a good idea, but don't pretend it's a killer item.

I usually look for weak spots in the aircraft design, SOPs and checklists. If there's something I don't like, I'll add a personal "double check". Could be the APU if the SOPs and company checklists are inadequate to prevent what you describe. Not necessarily killer items, but an error regardless. My current aircraft type and SOPs are quite good and catching anything close to a killer item. From the flows, to checklist and various aircraft warning systems, they're covered multiple times.
Still an undesired aircraft state. A mild one i'll give you that, much less critical than a fuel selector.

Forgetting the APU would have a nasty little effect of not decluttering the EICAS, thus possibly reducing situational awareness. I would argue that on a bad day it could be fatal. That's serious enough for my list.

The question was: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff. It's subjective by nature.

If you don't feel like checking that particular item, then so be it, we'll just have to agree to disagree. For me it's justified and will continue to be.

Fly safe.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The trouble with my life is that I do not think I am cut out to sit behind a desk.
Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1311
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

I just call "Release the hounds" and hope she flies.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
 
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”