Park Brake on for Takeoff

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PilotDAR
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by PilotDAR »

Especially, procrdures that are contrary to the AFM.
Is a valid point. There have been cases where I have been the PF in a multi turbo prop, where the procedure is to apply the parking brake for engines running operations. I don't like the fact that the procedure is written that way, but, I don't have to like everything. So, I'll follow the procedure, but I still guard the toe brakes, and monitor outside for possible movement, as though I do not trust the parking brakes.

I remember doing ground runs on a G1000 Caravan. It had synthetic vision, so as I sat still on the runway, while the avionics tech did whatever he was doing, I, of course intended that the plane not move. I was spooked, when out the of corner of my eye, the runway strips on the synthetic vision were creeping, it seemed that the plane was creeping. Out of instinct, I applied more pressure on the pedals.

The plane was not creeping at all, it was the slight GPS variations moving the synthetic vision strips around a foot or so, but it was enough to tingle my spidy senses that the plane was creeping.
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Diadem
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by Diadem »

I'm not sure how any of the talk about GA aircraft doing run-ups is relevant...In the 1900, setting the parking brake for engine starts is pretty much essential; very few people have the leg strength and stamina to hold the brakes for the duration of the start and after-start checks. The parking brake is also definitely strong enough to hold the aircraft in place while doing run-ups, in my experience up to about 60% torque. A huge amount of power would have been required to taxi the aircraft with the brake fully set, let alone actually take off. It's entirely on the crew for not ensuring they were configured properly for departure, and for continuing the takeoff when there was an obvious problem.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by AuxBatOn »

Easy solution: remove parking brake from aircraft!

Kidding aside, the T-38 doesn’t have a parking brake and there is enough residual thrust at idle to get her going pretty good, even in high-ish DA. It was a pain in the butt but it was a good calves workout every flight!l, especially when we had to hold short for a while.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by co-joe »

A big thing in 2 pilot ops is to communicate park brake position with transfer of control on the ground, just like you verbalise autopilot settings, ATC instructions, when you transfer control in flight.

Short of the runway I always say "park brake set". I never use the park brake to comply with a line up and wait clearance (ie no PB on the runway), and if it's set and I hand over control I say : "park brake set, you have control".

One thing that pisses me off though is that we don't have park brake on the before takeoff checklist. It's up to me to develop my own flow to not forget it.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by youhavecontrol »

Diadem wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 9:10 am I'm not sure how any of the talk about GA aircraft doing run-ups is relevant...
GA aircraft have park brakes too. Some pilots use them during things like the run-up, but some pilots don't. Apparently it's a divisive issue.
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Diadem
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by Diadem »

youhavecontrol wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:30 am GA aircraft have park brakes too. Some pilots use them during things like the run-up, but some pilots don't. Apparently it's a divisive issue.
I get that, but I don't really understand why it's being discussed in the Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft subforum on the topic of a medium turboprop in a commercial operation departing with the parking brake set. The very first response has this quote:
I have never needed to engage a parking brake for a run up in any light aircraft.
, and I'm not sure what that has to do with the subject. Use of the parking brake is a requirement in the 1900, unless there's a ground crew that's willing to pull the chocks once the engines are running, although the aircraft would probably hop over them at idle anyway. It would be like discussing an airline crew that didn't set the flaps correctly and went off the end of the runway, and the first response was "I land my 172 without flaps all the time, I don't see the big deal!" They're very different scenarios.
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by youhavecontrol »

Diadem wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 12:25 pm
youhavecontrol wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:30 am GA aircraft have park brakes too. Some pilots use them during things like the run-up, but some pilots don't. Apparently it's a divisive issue.
I get that, but I don't really understand why it's being discussed in the Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft subforum on the topic of a medium turboprop in a commercial operation departing with the parking brake set. The very first response has this quote:
I have never needed to engage a parking brake for a run up in any light aircraft.
, and I'm not sure what that has to do with the subject. Use of the parking brake is a requirement in the 1900, unless there's a ground crew that's willing to pull the chocks once the engines are running, although the aircraft would probably hop over them at idle anyway. It would be like discussing an airline crew that didn't set the flaps correctly and went off the end of the runway, and the first response was "I land my 172 without flaps all the time, I don't see the big deal!" They're very different scenarios.
True that. To the original poster's credit, there are GA lessons to be learned even from using larger aircraft as an example. Still I agree, I never understand how people feel the need to lay down hard/fast rules about someone else's aircraft. If someone told me that setting the park brake during the run-up in the Seminole was dangerous, I'd tell them to take a hike.
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rigpiggy
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by rigpiggy »

Diadem. If you trust the parking brake on the 1900 you are bound to taxi into yyz gates while head down doing the after starts......... feet on the brakes, parking brake will slip when it shouldn't and stick when it shouldn't as well
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by rigpiggy »

Diadem wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 9:10 am I'm not sure how any of the talk about GA aircraft doing run-ups is relevant...In the 1900, setting the parking brake for engine starts is pretty much essential; very few people have the leg strength and stamina to hold the brakes for the duration of the start and after-start checks. The parking brake is also definitely strong enough to hold the aircraft in place while doing run-ups, in my experience up to about 60% torque. A huge amount of power would have been required to taxi the aircraft with the brake fully set, let alone actually take off. It's entirely on the crew for not ensuring they were configured properly for departure, and for continuing the takeoff when there was an obvious problem.
Uhhhh No,I can tell from experience that a lot of the Agl planes, the park brakes will quickly bleed off. That said funniest thing is getting some B200 capt. Set the brake from muscle memory, and drop the rubber jungle. A quick way to a 45ish minute delay
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by goingnowherefast »

The parking brake is like any other aircraft system. Expect it to fail at some point, usually at an inconvenient time.

Be ready to pull the power during the runup, guard the pedals with your toes. Use it as designed, but expect it to fail. Same goes for engines, instruments, props, landing gear, pressurization, de/anti-ice systems, etc.

If the brake won't hold for 15 minutes, write it up. Should still have decent pressure after a hour and more.
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Diadem
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by Diadem »

rigpiggy wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 9:09 pm Diadem. If you trust the parking brake on the 1900 you are bound to taxi into yyz gates while head down doing the after starts......... feet on the brakes, parking brake will slip when it shouldn't and stick when it shouldn't as well...Uhhhh No,I can tell from experience that a lot of the Agl planes, the park brakes will quickly bleed off.
That sounds like a company with poor maintenance to me; I never had an issue doing the 24-hour checks with only the parking brake set. Your bad experience is not reflective of the type as a whole.
Also, considering the brake in the aircraft that started this thread was set firmly enough to impede the take off roll and blow two tires, doesn't that imply that it was working correctly?
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rigpiggy
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Re: Park Brake on for Takeoff

Post by rigpiggy »

I only used AGL as they had an aircraft almost drive into the terminal" name withheld should never have been near an airplane" however have worked at other places, and I'll tell you yhat the only places that had "good" maintenance were the oilfield charter companies other 704's were less than stellar, and too many maintenance requests in the book were a good way to look for another job. You can have dragging brakes with less than full parking brake. My kid is finishing his DL, and missed his last drivers test due to not "putting on park brake in an auto trans vehicle not on a hill..... today he was complaining of slow acceleration, lo and behold release the brake!
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