AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

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AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by Circle to land » Fri May 31, 2019 12:02 pm

Which one you will take for a 50 year old pilot?
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by youhavecontrol » Fri May 31, 2019 12:07 pm

I'd take the one that allows me to be home with my family the most, has the best company behind it, and pays enough to keep me relatively fat and happy.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by plhought » Fri May 31, 2019 6:05 pm

Avro dude! 146 FTW.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by TheRealMcCoy » Fri May 31, 2019 8:43 pm

You'll be flying the same routes, every day, with Summit. But you'll be home every night.

edit: sorry, I forgot North Caribou has 100's too.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by Roar » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:50 am

youhavecontrol wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:07 pm
I'd take the one that allows me to be home with my family the most, has the best company behind it, and pays enough to keep me relatively fat and happy.
I always find this to be a puzzling comment amongst pilots. When you chose to be a pilot did you not understand what the job entailed? I mean since the advent of flight being a pilot has meant being away from home, its the very nature of the job. I'm not casting dispersions on your character, its just the major reason I became a pilot was to travel and see the world on someone else dime.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by GoinVertical » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:41 am

Roar wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:50 am
youhavecontrol wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:07 pm
I'd take the one that allows me to be home with my family the most, has the best company behind it, and pays enough to keep me relatively fat and happy.
I always find this to be a puzzling comment amongst pilots. When you chose to be a pilot did you not understand what the job entailed? I mean since the advent of flight being a pilot has meant being away from home, its the very nature of the job. I'm not casting dispersions on your character, its just the major reason I became a pilot was to travel and see the world on someone else dime.
There you go, that's the reason you became a pilot. How many kids do you have, and how many days a month/year/their whole childhood do you get to spend with them?

There are plenty of people who like being home, and plenty more who enjoy travelling but would still rather be home with their family. There are plenty of jobs that allow that.

Different strokes for different folks, ya know?
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by Roar » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:32 am

GoinVertical wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:41 am
Roar wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:50 am
youhavecontrol wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:07 pm
I'd take the one that allows me to be home with my family the most, has the best company behind it, and pays enough to keep me relatively fat and happy.
I always find this to be a puzzling comment amongst pilots. When you chose to be a pilot did you not understand what the job entailed? I mean since the advent of flight being a pilot has meant being away from home, its the very nature of the job. I'm not casting dispersions on your character, its just the major reason I became a pilot was to travel and see the world on someone else dime.
There you go, that's the reason you became a pilot. How many kids do you have, and how many days a month/year/their whole childhood do you get to spend with them?

There are plenty of people who like being home, and plenty more who enjoy travelling but would still rather be home with their family. There are plenty of jobs that allow that.

Different strokes for different folks, ya know?
Very Few pilot jobs are you home all the time. Realistically it is a job that requires time spent away from home. Like I said it always puzzles me when I've run into pilots that bitch about being on the road, I always ask them what did they think it was going to be like? 9-5 Monday to Friday? good luck with that. and if that's what you want go find it a quit this job or occupation. How many kids do I have? None, never wanted any. Been happily married for 15 years. Now I understand my life choices are not for everyone but it is a pet peeve to fly with guys who whine about missing little Johnnys soccer game when they knew full well what this job if not career entails.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:26 am

Well... I never missed any birthdays or soccer games because I chose a job that allowed me to stay at home.

Even my current job only gives me on average one overnight a month.

Peoples situation’s change, or their outlook changes after they’ve done it for a while, or they are doing it in hopes of it getting better either through seniority or career progression.

Do You think the wide body captain at Air Canada cares that he’s going to Taipei with a bunch of strangers for the 20th time in his career? Do you think he’s going to do three trips this month instead of two because he doesn’t care about being home and likes to travel?
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:32 am

And for the OP. Personally I’d take the King Air captain job. An RJ is a boutique aircraft these days. Really cool, but not a lot of them around and their days are numbered. Finding work is feast or famine so unless it’s on a sched or a long term contract (eg: nothing to do with seasonal work like fishing charters or resource work like crew changes) expect to go where the work is and spend lots of time away from home. An FO isn’t going to make a lot and if it’s a good captain spot you might be waiting a while to upgrade.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by shimmydampner » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:35 am

Roar wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:32 am
Very Few pilot jobs are you home all the time.
Not to cast aspersions on you, but that's just not true outside of the airlines. There are a lot of really good jobs out there that have you home every night. If this person wants a job like that over spending days at a time in hotels living out of a wheelie bag, good for them. What's it to you?
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by Diadem » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:46 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:32 am
And for the OP. Personally I’d take the King Air captain job. An RJ is a boutique aircraft these days. Really cool, but not a lot of them around and their days are numbered. Finding work is feast or famine so unless it’s on a sched or a long term contract (eg: nothing to do with seasonal work like fishing charters or resource work like crew changes) expect to go where the work is and spend lots of time away from home. An FO isn’t going to make a lot and if it’s a good captain spot you might be waiting a while to upgrade.
I would have agreed with you two years ago, but more and more lately I'm seeing that 705 jet time is becoming way more of a limiting factor than multi-turbine PIC. If you've got the PIC for your ATPL, everything above and beyond doesn't matter the way it used to.
A lot of jobs I've seen lately require something like 500 hours on 705 jets for DECs; even Singapore Airlines wants 1500 hours on commercial jets for direct-entry first officers. It seems like if you want to go overseas for the gravy contracts, or go somewhere like SkyRegional or Swoop and bypass the FO wages, that jet time is invaluable.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by Jack Klumpus » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:44 pm

If you wanna stay in Canada take whichever gives you a better lifestyle. If you wanna go overseas take the jet job.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by youhavecontrol » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:46 pm

Roar wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:50 am
youhavecontrol wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 12:07 pm
I'd take the one that allows me to be home with my family the most, has the best company behind it, and pays enough to keep me relatively fat and happy.
I always find this to be a puzzling comment amongst pilots. When you chose to be a pilot did you not understand what the job entailed? I mean since the advent of flight being a pilot has meant being away from home, its the very nature of the job. I'm not casting dispersions on your character, its just the major reason I became a pilot was to travel and see the world on someone else dime.
It's funny because that statement doesn't hold up on every level of my career so far. I chose the career path I did based on what I understand about aviation... that for me, it would suck to be away from home.. therefore I chose a good flying job and career path where I didn't have to be gone so much. Been working very well so far.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:34 pm

Strictly speaking from a career perspective, 705 jet FO time isn't worth that much. PIC time is key. You'll get further ahead in the long run with PIC time as a general rule. As mentioned, the Avro 100/BAE-146 is a useless type rating. Many overseas operators still require Jet time on types over 40 metric tons. I think the Avro is just under this limit. FO time on a boutique jet isn't going to open as many doors outside of Canada as you'd think.
In my opinion, stick with the BE20 PIC time. The way AC and WS are hiring right now, that option will be open in anther year or so with a bunch more PIC time under your belt.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by ragequit » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:08 pm

Regarding being home every night. Everyone's desires and everyone's situation is different, so take this for what it's worth, but being home every night may not be the be-all-end-all that it's often made out to be.

I have two pre-school aged kids and a wife that works 9-5 Mon-Fri. I'm middling to low seniority at a 705 regional based in YVR and am gone usually 8 or 9 nights a month. My seniority would probably allow me to bring that down to 2 or 3 nights away if I wanted to. You'd think I would be the one who felt like I was missing out on time with the kids, but my wife is actually often jealous of how much quality time I get with them.

She works 9 hours a day with a 1 hour commute in traffic each way. She's gone just before or as they wake up, and right after she gets home it's time to make dinner, eat, do dishes and clean up a bit, maybe an hour with the kids before getting them in bed. Then another hour or so of time to yourself or more household stuff, go to sleep and do it all again the next day. Then the weekend comes and you try to cram a week's worth of activities into two days, taking the kids places and trying to get a few errands done along with everybody else.

Then there's me. I'm gone for 2 to 4 day stretches at times, but when I'm home I'm home with the kids all day. I'm able to walk them to school, go to their field trips and class parties (I do miss some if I don't happen to get those days off). I'm one of the few fathers in their class able to do this, most are working M-F. I can take them places on weekdays when the crowds aren't as bad. With some smart bidding, luck, and maybe some swaps, without even using vacation I can get nice stretches of days off to go camping (as long as the wife is able to get those days off, that is). Or bid reserve and work 5 days a month, then rest spent with the kids in the back yard or out for walks and bike rides. In that last case I have to be ready to go to work, but didn't get called very much. Often a night spent away is followed by a morning flight back home, arriving at 9am and having the rest of the day off.

I definitely miss some holidays. I think I was gone last Thanksgiving. But, I was able to bid reserve in December just to get a nice 4 day stretch of days off over Christmas this past year. I've been able to use guaranteed days off and vacation bidding to make sure I get everyone's birthdays and a few other important days off this year. I'm sure there will be some years that I do miss Christmas and birthdays, it's nearly guaranteed that I will. You just have to learn to make the most of what you can get, and take the good with the bad.

I can compare this to when I worked at a 704 also at YVR. I was only gone 2 or 3 days a month, but I found with a lot of those nights I was home, I may as well have been in a hotel room. Often finished work at 7 or 8pm. By the time I get home the kids are in bed. Have something quick to eat and barely see my wife, then in bed because I had to get up at 5 or 6am the next day for another day of work. May as well have been a hotel bed I slept in, and wouldn't have had an hour drive each way.

Again, this of course depends on the individual situation. I recognize that I'm at a good company that allows me to get all this. And of course there are times I've been sitting in a hotel wishing I was at home. I just wanted to point out that "Maximum nights at home" isn't always the best metric to evaluate a job. I thought that it would be for me before I went to the airlines, but turned out to be wrong. I also worked a M-F 9-5 desk job for 7 years and could never go back to that slog.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by BTD » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:35 pm

ragequit wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:08 pm
Regarding being home every night. Everyone's desires and everyone's situation is different, so take this for what it's worth, but being home every night may not be the be-all-end-all that it's often made out to be.

I have two pre-school aged kids and a wife that works 9-5 Mon-Fri. I'm middling to low seniority at a 705 regional based in YVR and am gone usually 8 or 9 nights a month. My seniority would probably allow me to bring that down to 2 or 3 nights away if I wanted to. You'd think I would be the one who felt like I was missing out on time with the kids, but my wife is actually often jealous of how much quality time I get with them.

She works 9 hours a day with a 1 hour commute in traffic each way. She's gone just before or as they wake up, and right after she gets home it's time to make dinner, eat, do dishes and clean up a bit, maybe an hour with the kids before getting them in bed. Then another hour or so of time to yourself or more household stuff, go to sleep and do it all again the next day. Then the weekend comes and you try to cram a week's worth of activities into two days, taking the kids places and trying to get a few errands done along with everybody else.

Then there's me. I'm gone for 2 to 4 day stretches at times, but when I'm home I'm home with the kids all day. I'm able to walk them to school, go to their field trips and class parties (I do miss some if I don't happen to get those days off). I'm one of the few fathers in their class able to do this, most are working M-F. I can take them places on weekdays when the crowds aren't as bad. With some smart bidding, luck, and maybe some swaps, without even using vacation I can get nice stretches of days off to go camping (as long as the wife is able to get those days off, that is). Or bid reserve and work 5 days a month, then rest spent with the kids in the back yard or out for walks and bike rides. In that last case I have to be ready to go to work, but didn't get called very much. Often a night spent away is followed by a morning flight back home, arriving at 9am and having the rest of the day off.

I definitely miss some holidays. I think I was gone last Thanksgiving. But, I was able to bid reserve in December just to get a nice 4 day stretch of days off over Christmas this past year. I've been able to use guaranteed days off and vacation bidding to make sure I get everyone's birthdays and a few other important days off this year. I'm sure there will be some years that I do miss Christmas and birthdays, it's nearly guaranteed that I will. You just have to learn to make the most of what you can get, and take the good with the bad.

I can compare this to when I worked at a 704 also at YVR. I was only gone 2 or 3 days a month, but I found with a lot of those nights I was home, I may as well have been in a hotel room. Often finished work at 7 or 8pm. By the time I get home the kids are in bed. Have something quick to eat and barely see my wife, then in bed because I had to get up at 5 or 6am the next day for another day of work. May as well have been a hotel bed I slept in, and wouldn't have had an hour drive each way.

Again, this of course depends on the individual situation. I recognize that I'm at a good company that allows me to get all this. And of course there are times I've been sitting in a hotel wishing I was at home. I just wanted to point out that "Maximum nights at home" isn't always the best metric to evaluate a job. I thought that it would be for me before I went to the airlines, but turned out to be wrong. I also worked a M-F 9-5 desk job for 7 years and could never go back to that slog.
Yup.

Mine are 8,5 and 3. All of the above I agree with. Plus the few days away you can recharge your battery to give the spouse a break too. My wife stays home so it is all day every day for her.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by Diadem » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:59 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:34 pm
Strictly speaking from a career perspective, 705 jet FO time isn't worth that much. PIC time is key. You'll get further ahead in the long run with PIC time as a general rule. As mentioned, the Avro 100/BAE-146 is a useless type rating. Many overseas operators still require Jet time on types over 40 metric tons. I think the Avro is just under this limit. FO time on a boutique jet isn't going to open as many doors outside of Canada as you'd think.
In my opinion, stick with the BE20 PIC time. The way AC and WS are hiring right now, that option will be open in anther year or so with a bunch more PIC time under your belt.
AC values 705 jet time higher than 703, <12500 lbs PIC. If you've got an ATPL, they don't care if you have 5000 hours of King Air captain time, but they assign a lot of points for 705 jet time. Airlines don't care about PIC beyond the minimum, but most ask how much jet time applicants have.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:42 pm

The OP is 50 years old. Do you think he’s really building time to go to Air Canada or overseas? Besides, almost everyone at the company I work for who had a captain spot on a King Air or 1900 went straight to mainline. I tick off a ton of boxes. Being ten years younger I might give it a try.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by BE20 Driver » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:44 pm

I missed the part about being 50 years old. That's getting close to the cutoff point for overseas work at some airlines. It also changes how one would look at going to AC. It probably stacks the deck towards the intangible - lifestyle.
Both jobs probably pay about the same and have similar benefits packages.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by shimmydampner » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:21 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:42 pm
I tick off a ton of boxes.
Do tell.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by plhought » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:16 pm

Dude,

You're 50 years old. You got at most 15 years left in this gig.

Do you really want to crawling around bags and seats in the ol' King Air whilst dealing with snarky 20somethungs in the right seat?

Jump on the Avro. Big woop - won't be captain for a while. A cockpit wider than a 747 - full autothrottle and autoland*. Seats and temperatures that are comfortable. Sweet British engineering will keep yeah on your toes and also make you feel bad ass with Concorde style button switching action. A toilet. An oven to throw some Safeway chickens in for reheating on those long legs whilst fighting headwinds at .71. Hand flies like a dream and the speed brake handle let's you barrel in straight to the threshold at 200+ knots until 2 miles out saving precious BBQ time at home.

Won't have throw ropes over tails to scrape ice and every 146 landing is smooth thanks to that awesome gear.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by Meatservo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:55 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:34 pm
Strictly speaking from a career perspective, 705 jet FO time isn't worth that much. PIC time is key. You'll get further ahead in the long run with PIC time as a general rule. As mentioned, the Avro 100/BAE-146 is a useless type rating. Many overseas operators still require Jet time on types over 40 metric tons. I think the Avro is just under this limit. FO time on a boutique jet isn't going to open as many doors outside of Canada as you'd think.
In my opinion, stick with the BE20 PIC time. The way AC and WS are hiring right now, that option will be open in anther year or so with a bunch more PIC time under your belt.
Not to quibble, but 40 metric tonnes is 88,184 pounds. A quick check on the interweb reveals that the BAE146-300/RJ100 weighs 101,500 lb at mgtow. The smaller 146-200/RJ85 weighs 97,000 lb.

One of the rather arbitrary limits imposed by recent Asian employers is a requirement for time on type over 100,000 pounds. The Avro 100 would seem to qualify.

However, your point as far as PIC time is concerned is not invalid.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by BE20 Driver » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:40 pm

Typo on my part. Should have been 50. Is it arbitrary? Absolutely. Non-type rated positions often have these arbitrary limits imposed. A modern jet is a modern jet. 99,000 lbs or 150,000 lbs is going to have a similar flight deck, SOP's and similar challenges. I fail to see how flying a 767 on medium haul ETOPS would be vastly different than flying a 737 on medium ETOPS flights but again, some postings I have seen require time over 200,000 lbs for the 767 job.

The point of all of this is that the Avro/BAE is a useless type rating that gets lumped in with all of the "Non Type Rated" job postings. I believe Embrairs are also in the same 'less useful' category. It puts all of your eggs into a smaller basket. Sadly in the jet world, Boeing and Airbus time seem to be the only type ratings of any true value.

My advice to most people who are moving up the career ladder is that PIC time will often open more doors than FO time any day. More doors=more options=better choices. The OP being 50 years old is more of the exception than the rule depending on what his or her career goals are. At that point though, you still have a good 15 years until retiring so plenty of time to find the best job possible with a short sacrifice of taking the PIC job for a couple of years.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by iflyforpie » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:16 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:21 am
iflyforpie wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:42 pm
I tick off a ton of boxes.
Do tell.
I’ve got an aviation diploma (AME... but that’s still aviation, right?)
My 1/8th Secwépemc blood now qualifies me for a status card.
Je suis un stylo bleu le autre langue officiel.
I identify as an attack helicopter.

Times like these, I figure I’d give it a shot. All I have left is my soul.
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Re: AVRO 100 First Officer or King Air 200 Captain

Post by rigpiggy » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:17 pm

Id take the avro
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