Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

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pelmet
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Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by pelmet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:51 pm

Even of you have somehow got the wrong runway that you are to use into your mind, you still require a specific clearance to cross a runway.

"N9017P, an Airbus 319-100 aircraft operated by American Airlines, was conducting flight AAL2589
from Toronto/Lester B. Pearson Intl (CYYZ), ON to Miami Intl (KMIA), FL. During the taxi out for
the departure from CYYZ, Ground Control authorized AAL2589 to taxi for a departure on Runway
06L, which was read back correctly by the flight crew. After switching to the Tower frequency,
AAL2589 reported that they were taxiing to Runway 06R. The incorrect runway read back was not
noticed by the Tower controller, who continued on to state that they had one more aircraft to land
prior to allowing AAL2589 to depart. AAL2589 proceeded to taxi across 06L and held short of the
06R ILS hold line, which resulted in the aircraft occupying Runway 06L. No clearance was given to
AAL2589 to cross a runway, and the only south complex runway in use at the time was 06L. The
Tower controller directed C-FYIY, an Airbus 319-100 aircraft operated by Air Canada rouge,
conducting flight ROU1671 from Orlando Intl (KMCO), FL to CYYZ, to pull up and go around as
there was traffic on the runway. When queried on the radio, the flight crew of AAL2589 stated that
they believed they were cleared to taxi to Runway 06R, and were holding short of the ILS hold line
as the weather conditions warranted."



All that being said, I have run into an odd but slightly different situation regarding closed runways. One of the airports I have been flying out of has five runways(and multiple intersections). It is quite a complex airfield for taxiing. Two of the five runways runways are permanently closed(although I don't know the specific terminology for their status when I initially started flying there or now that things have changed a bit). Both of the closed had to be crossed/entered to get to the run-up area. Initially, one of them still required a clearance to cross the runway even though it had sandbags on it and I was told by an instructor that people got in trouble for not getting a clearance. Oddly, no clearance was required to go onto the other closed runway and in fact, the run-ups were done on that second closed runway. Later on, that first closed runway was decommissioned(not sure if that is the correct terminology) and a clearance was no longer required to cross.

But it has left me a bit paranoid about getting a clearance to cross even a closed runway. So when I flew to a different airport a few weeks ago to which has three runways with one notamed as being closed(and it is a permanent closure), I asked if I was cleared to cross the runway when I got the taxi clearance. The controller seemed to have a slight tone of sarcasm(as if I should know that I don't need a clearance to cross) when he stated that the runway is permanently closed. Maybe I should know but I'll just remain paranoid and ask whenever the situation arises.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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iflyforpie
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:33 pm

You also need clearance to exit onto any runway. With closed runways (NOTAMed closed but available as a taxiway) this is often a grey area as well.
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pelmet
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by pelmet » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:47 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:33 pm
You also need clearance to exit onto any runway. With closed runways (NOTAMed closed but available as a taxiway) this is often a grey area as well.
Thanks,

I suppose that you are correct(maybe it is written in the AIM, not sure). Best to double check.
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by Victory » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 am

Do you talk to ATC the same way you title threads? Like when you are ready to taxi do you say, "You should always clear AC123 to taxi..." ?
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by pelmet » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:36 pm

Victory wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 am
Do you talk to ATC the same way you title threads? Like when you are ready to taxi do you say, "You should always clear AC123 to taxi..." ?
There really are some unusual people on this forum(aside from me). Three responses in three different threads that add nothing to the discussion except to complain about the wording of my titles.

Do you never have anything to add except complaints instead of intelligent discussion to help prevent an incident. I looked at your posts and your background makes it seem like you could actually add a lot to these threads if you had the desire.

The other person who responded brought up an important point that is worth further discussion and you can’t seem to be able to get beyond my wording of thread titles.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7#p1078301

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 7#p1079317
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pelmet
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by pelmet » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:41 pm

For those particularly concerned about the wording of my title(if there really is anyone else), I just try to make it on topic as to what happened.

Some of you might have read the articles by Peter Garrison in Flying magazine.

While I would never consider myself to be anywhere near his level of writing, I have never seen anyone write into the magazine about the titles of his articles.

Here are a couple that are a similar to style to mine. I believe he has a similar desire to prevent future accidents. And there are no doubt many more similar article titles out there from all the aviation safety material.

https://www.flyingmag.com/technique/acc ... nd-and-air

https://www.flyingmag.com/aftermath-the-unnoticed

I look forward to thoughtful replies such as what Iflyforpie did. I certainly hope Victory could do similar.

By the way, both articles I linked to are quite interesting and worth a read.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:03 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:41 pm

Some of you might have read the articles by Peter Garrison in Flying magazine.

While I would never consider myself to be anywhere near his level of writing,

I believe he has a similar desire to prevent future accidents. And there are no doubt many more similar article titles out there from all the aviation safety’s material.
Correct on both of your statements. Peter Garrison is very worthwhile reading.

Go right to the source of his Aftermath articles: https://www.flyingmag.com/tags/aftermath
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pelmet
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by pelmet » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:45 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:03 pm
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:41 pm

Some of you might have read the articles by Peter Garrison in Flying magazine.

While I would never consider myself to be anywhere near his level of writing,

I believe he has a similar desire to prevent future accidents. And there are no doubt many more similar article titles out there from all the aviation safety’s material.
Correct on both of your statements. Peter Garrison is very worthwhile reading.
Actually, you have three statements in there. The most important one is........." I believe he has a similar desire to prevent future accidents. And there are no doubt many more similar article titles out there from all the aviation safety material."

Sadly, there have been several posters who have made multiple responses that add nothing but downright insults in response. It is quite fascinating actually, and says a lot about our community. They could add so much and perhaps save lives. If only that was top on their mind.


Anyways, back to the thread.

Does anyone know if the AIM or regulation says that you must get a clearance from ATC to exit from the landing runway onto another runway?

Rookie?, Victory?, Anybody?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A week later and nor help from Victory or Rookie....anyone surprised, I'm not.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kevenv
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by kevenv » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:31 am

pelmet wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:45 pm
Does anyone know if the AIM or regulation says that you must get a clearance from ATC to exit from the landing runway onto another runway?
In the AIM - 4.4.4 - Taxiing, page 238: No aircraft shall exit a runway onto another runway unless instructed or authorized to do so by ATC.
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by photofly » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:11 am

kevenv wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:31 am
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:45 pm
Does anyone know if the AIM or regulation says that you must get a clearance from ATC to exit from the landing runway onto another runway?
In the AIM - 4.4.4 - Taxiing, page 238: No aircraft shall exit a runway onto another runway unless instructed or authorized to do so by ATC.
Weird. It used to say "no aircraft should..."

I wonder what prompted the change.
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pelmet
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by pelmet » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:43 am

photofly wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:11 am
kevenv wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:31 am
pelmet wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:45 pm
Does anyone know if the AIM or regulation says that you must get a clearance from ATC to exit from the landing runway onto another runway?
In the AIM - 4.4.4 - Taxiing, page 238: No aircraft shall exit a runway onto another runway unless instructed or authorized to do so by ATC.
Weird. It used to say "no aircraft should..."

I wonder what prompted the change.
Thanks guys. Appreciate the very helpful input. I suspect that AIM modifications can be based on violations or pilots getting escaping a violation because of the wording of things such as this.
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Re: Cleared to Taxi to a rwy is not a clearance to cross any rwy

Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:20 am

Victory wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:18 am
Do you talk to ATC the same way you title threads? Like when you are ready to taxi do you say, "You should always clear AC123 to taxi..." ?

What?
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