How to improve flight training.

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7786
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by photofly »

B208 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:35 am
photofly wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:15 pm
Here's another question:
You have two pilots with the say 100 hours each.
One was trained on tricycle gear until solo the other was trained on and only flew tail wheel airplnes.
You owned a Cessna 172.
Which pilot would you feel less stress letting them fly your Cessna 172 without a check out?

Tailwheel guy.
You'd pick the pilot with zero tricycle time, over the pilot with experience of both landing gear configurations?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

User avatar
telex
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by telex »


Of course a pilot can fly a whole career without ever flying tailwheel, but I opine that the tailwheel experienced pilot will more naturally fly with slightly better ease and precision. Perhaps that ease and precision will benefit that pilot one day in handling an unsymmetrical plane.

Better "ease and precision" in what regard?

I disagree that single engine tailwheel experience will benefit anybody in a multi engine aircraft with an engine out.
---------- ADS -----------
  

jakeandelwood
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:45 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by jakeandelwood »

  • To fly a tailwheel aircraft one must be a good pilot.
  • Everyone pilot should be a good pilot
  • Therefore every pilot should fly a tailwheel aircraft.

Sounds like one of those weird questions on the Nav Canada wonderlic recruitment test: True or false, Joe flies a Cessna 172, according to the above statement is Joe a good pilot?
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

I find it interesting that there are so many pilots who feel it that something as basic as learning to fly a tail wheel airplane is not beneficial to improving flying skills.

Is it because the training industry has so few instructors who can teach on one?

God forbid I suggest flying sea planes or helicopters will also improve your aircraft handling skills.

And of course there are also sail planes and gyroplane licenses that one can get.

Of all the different types of flying machines my favourite ones for pure flying fun are gyroplanes....

...so I did the training and got myself a Commercial gyroplane pilots license, which is was the license I am most satisfied to have gotten.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

I find it interesting that there are so many pilots who feel it that something as basic as learning to fly a tail wheel airplane is not beneficial to improving flying skills.

Is it because the training industry has so few instructors who can teach on one?

God forbid I suggest flying sea planes or helicopters will also improve your aircraft handling skills.

And of course there are also sail planes and gyroplane licenses that one can get.

Of all the different types of flying machines my favourite ones for pure flying fun are gyroplanes....

...so I did the training and got myself a Commercial gyroplane pilots license, which is the license I am most satisfied to have gotten.

...the next most satisfying one is the aerial applicators license.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by C.W.E. on Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
telex
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by telex »

---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

More exposure to a variety of aviation skills is clearly beneficial. However you suggested the tail wheel should be mandatory and that's a very different kind of suggestion !!!!
Why?

If as you agree it improves flying skills and is so simple a thing to add to the acquisition of a PPL what is the problem?
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

That's just the point; it's not all that simple, accessibility, cost, qualified instructors to name just a few related issues and to what end
I have a feeling I my suggestion is a bit to unreasonable in today's world of flying judging by the responses I am getting. :mrgreen:

But this one really puzzles me.
qualified instructors to name just a few
If a flight instructor is to inept flying wise to handle a simple tail wheel basic trainer then I guess that sums up why there is so much resistance to flying them.

I wish the colonel were still here because I am sure he would have some real good comments to add to this. :D
---------- ADS -----------
  

Kejidog
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:55 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Kejidog »

Tailwheel makes a better pilot? I am not so sure about that. I was recently up in a 170 with a local “tailwheel” guy with about 100 hours more than me I have now well over 300. I can honestly say it was a scary experience for me. Not that he was dangerous but i have never been nor would I do to a passenger what I experienced. I was thrown around bumped and jostled The whole flight. The three circuits we did i never saw a stable approach nor was being close to the center line attempted and the climb outs were scary. In my 172 i fly coordinated and can trim out to just about any stable airspeed on approach. I pride myself on smoothness and hope it shows when i take someone especially another pilot up. I don’t think that the wheel on the back gave him any aircraft handling skills that I saw anyway. So how can this make him or anyone a better aviator?
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

Here's one to ponder, why was fully develop spin training remove.
Good question.

Judging from some of the responses here the less one is trained the better a pilot he/she will be, maybe that is the reason?.

When I was still in the advanced training business the lack of skills I found in so many pilots sure gave me a never ending supply of clients that is for sure.

Could it be because today's computerised aircraft that the industry uses has removed the need for a lot of the basic flying skills?

And flying is getting so expensive the new generation of pilots are getting licenses to fly these machines and why spend money learning skills they think they don't need
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

delete
---------- ADS -----------
  

lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by lownslow »

5x5 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:58 am
Here's a question - if you were designing the world's first airplane with today's infrastructure of predominantly paved runways so that prop clearance and roughness of the operating surface wan't a primary concern, would you build in dynamic instability that would manifest itself almost solely in the critical phases of transitioning from the air to the ground and the ground to the air? And by design make landing the most likely time (followed by take-off) at which loss of control would occur?
The guys at Eviation seem to think it’s a good idea:
Image
What’s weirder is their concept drawings all showed tricycle gear.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1752
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C-GGGQ »

Yeah I wonder how that switch came about? Or is it available in both configs?
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by mixturerich »

Improve social skills and you’ll improve flight flight training. Good social skills = good CRM.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

The GA fatal accident rate in the 1950’s was 4 times higher than it is today so I find the idea that we should return to 1950’s training programs unpersuasive.

Good hands and feet are only part of what makes a “good” pilot. Learning and applying good airmanship and pilot decision making skills are just as important. The most dangerous pilot I ever knew was very good at greasing his tail dragger on even in challenging conditions but was an absolute idiot. He eventually killed himself in an accident after some monumentally bad in flight decisions.

However ultimately what you fly is irrelevant. Developing and maintaining really good fundamental flying skills is a choice. You can choose to work at always having the ball in the
middle, always be right on the selected airspeed and altitude, always touchdown at the selected touchdown point, straight, on centreline and in the correct attitude.......or just accept what ever more or less gets you to your destination.

The best pilot I ever met was an elderly gentleman who was the post card for “been there done that”. He had a beautiful 172 and as a young instructor I sometimes flew with him. I still vividly remember how the controls hardly moved but we were always exactly on speed and every landing was a master class in precise aircraft control.

He had nothing to prove anymore but he still made every flight a quest for aeronautical perfection.

You don’t need the worlds greatest instructor to choose to make a real effort to fly as precisely and accurately as you can......
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

The GA fatal accident rate in the 1950’s was 4 times higher than it is today so I find the idea that we should return to 1950’s training programs unpersuasive.


I made no suggestions in that regard at all, how do you leap to such a conclusion as you did above, all I suggested was using a tail wheel airplane for the training up to solo.

Would that not be permitted by T.C. ?

Or would that be teaching be unsafe?

Please answer the two above questions.
---------- ADS -----------
  

L39Guy
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:04 pm
Location: Canada

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by L39Guy »

Let me toss this out there...if we really want pilots with good hands and feet - and the MAX issue is demonstrating that in spades - how about making an aerobatic endorsement mandatory, particularly if it is on a tail dragger? Hit two birds with one stone - better hands and feet from a tail dragger and aerobatics.

In addition to the better hands and feet aspect, learning aerobatics enhances upset recovery skills as well as being a confidence builder. The training done in the simulators is too artificial - put somebody upside down in a real aircraft and that is where the true learning really occurs.
---------- ADS -----------
  

goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1831
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by goingnowherefast »

I love that idea. Strap me into a Pitts and let's go!

I would also like to buy one some day...maybe next pay raise .
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. »

Let me toss this out there...if we really want pilots with good hands and feet - and the MAX issue is demonstrating that in spades - how about making an aerobatic endorsement mandatory, particularly if it is on a tail dragger? Hit two birds with one stone - better hands and feet from a tail dragger and aerobatics.
That would be fantastic and the rewards would off set the cost...rewards being safer pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Squaretail
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:27 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Squaretail »

PilotDAR wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:33 am
I believe that a good instructor is a good instructor regardless of what machine they are teaching on
I cannot share that opinion. An instructor who is competent on one/some types, could be an ineffective instructor on other types! Would a good instructor in a 152/172/182 also be a good person to train a pilot in a 185 (wheels/wheel skis/amphibian)? The 185 flies about the same, but handling it near and on the ground will be rather different than a 172 in any case. Yes, they might train the basics of handling in flight well in many types, but as I state, no one pilot can be good in everything!
I would postulate that one of the qualities a good instructor should have is knowing what the limitation are of what they should be teaching on.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good people drink beer. - Hunter S. Thompson

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7786
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by photofly »

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:27 pm
I find it interesting that there are so many pilots who feel it that something as basic as learning to fly a tail wheel airplane is not beneficial to improving flying skills.
You are obfuscating the difference between:
  • Learning to fly a taildragger, and
  • Learning to fly in a taildragger.
Everyone accepts the proposition that learning to fly a taildragger is beneficial to improving flying skills. LIkewise, everyone accepts that learning to fly a glider, a gyrocopter, and a floatplane are also beneficial to improving flying skills.

Some people have however rejected the proposition that requiring pilots to learn to fly in a taildragger is the best way to improve flying skills.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Strike me down with all of your hatred & your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

jakeandelwood
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:45 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by jakeandelwood »

L39Guy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:22 pm
Let me toss this out there...if we really want pilots with good hands and feet - and the MAX issue is demonstrating that in spades - how about making an aerobatic endorsement mandatory, particularly if it is on a tail dragger? Hit two birds with one stone - better hands and feet from a tail dragger and aerobatics.

In addition to the better hands and feet aspect, learning aerobatics enhances upset recovery skills as well as being a confidence builder. The training done in the simulators is too artificial - put somebody upside down in a real aircraft and that is where the true learning really occurs.
I hate acrobatics, I don't like being in a plane while they are being done and I will never do them in any plane I'm flying, it just freaks me out, does that make me a crappy pilot because I refuse to learn that spectrum of flying? This tail dragger flying making you a better pilot is ridiculous, maybe all the different licences should be combined into one. Flying schools could have trainers with both gear config, some gliders, hot air balloons, gyros, and regular helicopters, hell, throw in a blimp while we're at it, you must be proficient in all of them before you solo. We could drive up the cost of flight training so much we'll never have to worry about a pilot surplus again.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
telex
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 458
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by telex »

jakeandelwood wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:48 pm
L39Guy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:22 pm
Let me toss this out there...if we really want pilots with good hands and feet - and the MAX issue is demonstrating that in spades - how about making an aerobatic endorsement mandatory, particularly if it is on a tail dragger? Hit two birds with one stone - better hands and feet from a tail dragger and aerobatics.

In addition to the better hands and feet aspect, learning aerobatics enhances upset recovery skills as well as being a confidence builder. The training done in the simulators is too artificial - put somebody upside down in a real aircraft and that is where the true learning really occurs.
I hate acrobatics, I don't like being in a plane while they are being done and I will never do them in any plane I'm flying, it just freaks me out, does that make me a crappy pilot because I refuse to learn that spectrum of flying? This tail dragger flying making you a better pilot is ridiculous, maybe all the different licences should be combined into one. Flying schools could have trainers with both gear config, some gliders, hot air balloons, gyros, and regular helicopters, hell, throw in a blimp while we're at it, you must be proficient in all of them before you solo. We could drive up the cost of flight training so much we'll never have to worry about a pilot surplus again.
Heretic! How dare you cast aspersions towards the Holy Alter of the Tailwheel!

If you wish redemption (pilot excellence) you must accept the holy way of the Tailwheel!

It is the only path to ease and precision brother!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2120
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by complexintentions »

L39Guy wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:22 pm
Let me toss this out there...if we really want pilots with good hands and feet - and the MAX issue is demonstrating that in spades - how about making an aerobatic endorsement mandatory, particularly if it is on a tail dragger? Hit two birds with one stone - better hands and feet from a tail dragger and aerobatics.

In addition to the better hands and feet aspect, learning aerobatics enhances upset recovery skills as well as being a confidence builder. The training done in the simulators is too artificial - put somebody upside down in a real aircraft and that is where the true learning really occurs.
But is the Max issue really about hands and feet, or lack of critical thinking, decision making, troubleshooting and analysis? (Yes, yes, Boeing is complicit in this process as well.)

I tend to go with the latter. No amount of fancy footwork will save you if you've got the thrust set at TOGA heading towards the ground. I get that the concept of making superior decisions so that one doesn't need superior skills doesn't appeal to the romantic notion of saving the day with a wingover into a reversal.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I think it's relevant to point out that in most modern accidents handling ability was a far smaller factor than the cerebral component. Perhaps flight training should focus on that - teaching aspiring aviators how to THINK. Arguing about which machine it's on is a bit...irrelevant.

I should mention, I say this as someone who enjoys flinging aircraft around and did an aerobatics component in my flight training. But apart from always trying to maintain solid base hand flying skills, it's never really been relevant to my day job.

The biggest factor towards making me a better pilot has been the gift of flying with skilled, experienced mentors along the way who taught me to never stop thinking, analyzing, and questioning.
---------- ADS -----------
  
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.

switchflicker
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:25 am

Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by switchflicker »

Well here's how I think the flight training improvement plan should go
BEFORE even considering the holy tail wheel training,which of course is the grand finale of the most exceptional pilot training in the whole world, the student should be able to demonstrate the flawless use of DOS, dial telephone, (no, make that the crank party line phone) and of course the range approach. This will ensure that the applicant will have the basics needed to use Windows, touch tone or speak into telephone and the NDB approach. Then and only then should they even dream of STARTING the holy tail wheel training.
After the holy tail wheel training is complete to the Holy Tail Wheel Ultimate Instructors Standard, the student should be issued with the authority to prepare him or her self for some nose dragger checkout and of course all the modern inconveniences of the day.
That's what I think
---------- ADS -----------
  
"I'd rather have it and not need than to need it and not have it" Capt. Augustus McCrae.

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”