Canadian/First Air Merger

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WarmSandDreams
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by WarmSandDreams »

pelmet wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:40 pm Maybe the problem is too many flights with not enough payload. Matching each other flight for flight. Do they both need to be sending big jets on a route with exactly the same departure time.

If AC and WJ overload a route, they lose money and eventually, if the business is well run, cut back.

AC used to send DC-9 aircraft to places like YUY and YVO. Now it is smaller aircraft. RJ’s have replaced 737’s out west and have proven that they can be operated in the east. Freight from the south can go on freighters like Cargojet.

Airlines are putting too much capacity on routes and losing money. The answer is not a monopoly that massively raises prices to a point that is way more than reasonable.
Medical contacts require a certain number of days a week of service, so the only way to reduce capacity would be to go from flying an ATR to flying a 1900 or metro, neither of which have the range to make these routes work with any useful payload. The 1900 also has a very similar operating cost per hour to an ATR. The ATR. You could get a king air and fly 4 people at a time, but that would dramatically increase cost. So if you can't reduce capacity by down guaging aircraft, and you can't reduce frequency, and the biggest cargo contact just went in house, how do you make money?
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pelmet
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by pelmet »

godsrcrazy wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:25 am Yellowknife had the best of service before Air Canada and West Jet showed up with $75.00 seats on the RJ and 737. As soon as Canadian and First air dropped their Edmonton Calgary service to Once a day and not every day. $75.00 seats went to $250.00 seats at the cheapest and RJ and 737 are now Q400’s. From what I understand if you want to fly south for business for the day your choice is be at YZF airport if you can get a seat by 04:30 and your lucky to get back by 23:00 and don’t forget you get to ride 2 hours each way on a Q400 with a hope the flight attendants will come around more then once.
Seems to me that before AC and WJ showed up, all flights were through YEG with a few exceptions. Now there are non-stops YYC and YVR in addition to YEG, No wonder a 737 was used. Now people are saving time avoiding YEG which saves a lot of time. Of course with less people going to YEG, a dash is used adding 20 minutes over those so much faster 737's. Thats called service improvement.
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valleyboy
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by valleyboy »

Seems to me that before AC and WJ showed up, all flights were through YEG with a few exceptions.


NWT Air which is now First Air did indeed continue on to YYC and even serviced the Muni, with option of connections out of Calgary. They also really did not want to land at Leduc but politics forced them to drop the Muni and use the International. The International was always a pig in a poke and no airline really wanted to use it for domestic flights, unlike Mirabel it survived and mostly by government intervention. In the 80's CYEG was close to being bankrupt and Municipal and Federal intervention diverted the Muni flights to Leduc and now the Muni is history as well.

Air Canada also made it impossible for NWT and 7F to continue the YYC route. Ironically it was ALPA that forced this by requiring NWT to pay for or place AC pilots in NWT aircraft on the route between Edmonton and Calgary. Route protection in the bygone days was very restrictive and also restricted to 80 seats or less.

I'm not saying days before deregulation were perfect but I'm sure there was no idea the industry would morph into what we have today. I don't know how anyone can actually have a good day travelling now. I think the only solution is offering cryo sleep. No wonder the world is one big pissed off cesspool of people. It's almost more pleasant going to the dentist than going on a flight these days.
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pelmet
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by pelmet »

The city airport was convenient for a lot of people but it is gone.

It is nice that an airline used to make one stop flights to YYC but now they are non-stop.

Before AC and WJ arrived, if one wanted to travel to a multitude of airports not served by YEG, it was just an extra stop. Now one going to YVR or beyond (or even YYC that has much better connections) saves so much time.

Who the hell wants to arrive from Asia in YVR and then have to go through YEG? Even worse when YEG weather is bad. I guess it was convenient for a couple of northern operators.

Looks like the convenience factor is way up except for Edmonton folks who had all the convenience for themselves.

Competition has made things much more convenient in the west. Perhaps the east could do better as well. Montreal is way larger and more convenient for connections with everything YOW has times three and overseas connections. A lot of people could save an entire day on travel.

It’s like saying all flights from east to west across Canada should have to fly from YYZ to YVR so passengers can enjoy flying nice A380’s and then connect to to YYC, YEG, YOW, YHZ, etc. Maybe they are happy to save time and take a smaller airplane non-stop on all those routes instead.

Monopolies are rarely good for the customers.
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valleyboy
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by valleyboy »

Well 7F was first in that YZF-YVR-YZF route as well but a little thing call 9/11 happened and the Asian market dropped off - it's OK to rip the true northern people off but don't try to put competition into the southern market because everyone will gang up on you and that's OK. People in YK, in my mind are no longer "northern" or isolated. I think this all changed once Walmart moved in. Let's face it locals don't give a shit about the smaller communities as long as they get their deal and cheap seat. If they did they would embrace and support the northern carriers more.
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pelmet
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by pelmet »

If the market dropped off after 9/11 then a smaller type is needed to fly the route profitably. It appears that an RJ or Dash-8 is the appropriate size aircraft for YZF-YVR. That is why other carriers have been flying this route for a long time while it was dropped by the carrier that initiated the route. If a carrier doesn't want to spend money to have the size of aircraft that will make money on the route then go ahead and drop it but whining about the lack of cabin crew service on a route when the alternative is no service or one-stop service doesn't make sense to me.

I say good on AC for bringing in consistent, long term service to YVR and YYC. But...now with 2/3(just a guess) of the people leaving YZF have been given great benefit by bypassing YEG are no longer going to YEG, it was time to downsize the type going to YEG. Maybe the northern jet carriers should have purchased some cheap CRJ's or Dash-8-400's. Too late now.

Plus, going on AC allows baggage to be chacked through to destination on connecting flights allowing tighter connections and saving even more time instead of hoping that the baggage handlers will get the bag to the baggage belt and you having to stand in line and check-in again. Another benefit of the new competition. I say that from a time-saving point of view, the new competition has been great for the majority of people flying south from YZF.

Perhaps more competition is needed in the east if the right aircraft type can be found for the longer routes. Different market issues for sure but in the end....

More competition is needed, not mergers.
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by valleyboy »

I can't see any value in connecting in Calgary rather than Edmonton. A connection is a connection. The Q400 has to go off the longer routes. Do what it was designed for but 2 hour legs it's not. The RJ isn't even worth mentioning all I can say is never take an emergency exit, you will freeze your ass.

Mergers are good and bad. The forced AC/Canadian merger just cost everyone money, jobs and the industry is just getting back on track. Thank you government intervention!!

Companies are greedy and none of them want competition and as far as being loyal to their customers, WS has demonstrated several times in the past that they will bail on a route as soon as it becomes marginal. You can only cut prices so far and even load factors won't keep you in the air. Look at WOW

Part of the issue is the north is spoiled. Not that long ago 1 sked a week, now they want 5 a day and jet service as well. The numbers don't lie, There is not enough for 2 705 jet operators in the north. I can see the only two choices, draw up the boundaries and each take a section or merge.

Ironically I don't see much discussion about the Bearskin, Perimeter merge with rumours of Wasaya being part of it as well in the future. This leaves us with the question of Calm Air as well since they are all owned (at least partially) by the same company.

Seems to me I once read that the only answer for the viability of International airlines in the future will be the merging of all existing airlines into 2 or 3 large world wide carriers. Time does march on and time will tell.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by goingnowherefast »

Mostly correct. The North wants the CASM, ticket prices of a 787 and the frequency seen in YVR, but only have the customer base for a Dash 8-100 twice weekly.

If you want cheap tickets, up gauge the plane and cut frequency. If you want frequency, increase prices and decrease aircraft size. Can't have both. Can't support 3 A380s a day in a town of 50 000.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by goingnowherefast »

double post
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pelmet
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by pelmet »

valleyboy wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:58 pm I can't see any value in connecting in Calgary rather than Edmonton. A connection is a connection. The Q400 has to go off the longer routes. Do what it was designed for but 2 hour legs it's not. The RJ isn't even worth mentioning all I can say is never take an emergency exit, you will freeze your ass.

Mergers are good and bad. The forced AC/Canadian merger just cost everyone money, jobs and the industry is just getting back on track. Thank you government intervention!!

Companies are greedy and none of them want competition and as far as being loyal to their customers, WS has demonstrated several times in the past that they will bail on a route as soon as it becomes marginal. You can only cut prices so far and even load factors won't keep you in the air. Look at WOW

Part of the issue is the north is spoiled. Not that long ago 1 sked a week, now they want 5 a day and jet service as well. The numbers don't lie, There is not enough for 2 705 jet operators in the north. I can see the only two choices, draw up the boundaries and each take a section or merge.
Then maybe both airlines should start cutting back. YVR is great for connections. Aircraft comfort is not considered in a merger. A380 pax think a 737 is crap.
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valleyboy
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by valleyboy »

A380 pax think a 737 is crap.
I can't agree with that since in the opinion of many the best ride in the industry today is the Embraer (Air Canada config) and I certainly can agree as well. But we are drifting here.

Everyone wants cheap seats, most everyone, I for one would rather pay more for an enjoyable flight compared to what we get today.

Small communities must accept the fact that they will pay higher fares. The north has started to judge by "southern" standards. We just need to look at other carriers (Bearskin/Perimeter,Calm Air and Wasaya) It costs more for an 1 hour flight than a return flight to Europe. Fare structure is based on the aircraft capacity.

There is also a passenger dynamics difference between YK and Frob traffic. There is a far higher percentage of "connections" out of the West as compared to the East. While almost all passengers are continuing on originating in Yellowknife the opposite is true in Iqualuit. Ottawa and Montreal are their final destinations.

We can bat this around forever but the fact remains that the north will not viably support 2 "large" aircraft operators. How the end result is achieved will be an interesting time.
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Tertle
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by Tertle »

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5181975

Merger got the approval.
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leftoftrack
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by leftoftrack »

WOOHOO new airline to be called First Canadian
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

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Donald
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by Donald »

This is a merger in name only. The organizational structure and head office location clearly show this to be a takeover.

I've heard from friends that there are lots of 5T pilots running away as fast as they can.

Good luck!
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by dhc# »

A little "birdie" mentioned to me that 5T is very short of crews on the Dash 8 and many cpt/cpt pairings happening lately.
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by valleyboy »

it's a hard pill to swallow to go from a senior captain to about halfway down the seniority list. With the merge everyone keeps their seats but any roll backs and you might go from 73 captain to right seat on a dash or ATR. 7F has a lot of senior pilots who were working there prior to 5T ever existing. What would you do?
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FICU
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by FICU »

All mid to junior F/Os leaving for Swoop left seats and a few to Air Canada. A few left for Encore left seats previously. Flight ops integration won’t be for a few years so nothing really changing for us other than uniform and livery when that eventually happens.
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by FICU »

valleyboy wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:56 am it's a hard pill to swallow to go from a senior captain to about halfway down the seniority list. With the merge everyone keeps their seats but any roll backs and you might go from 73 captain to right seat on a dash or ATR. 7F has a lot of senior pilots who were working there prior to 5T ever existing. What would you do?
You don’t seem to understand the merging of seniority lists. The majority of our F/Os moved on for left seats based in YEG. What would you do?
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Re: Canadian/First Air Merger

Post by valleyboy »

I don't profess to be an expert but I have gone through a merger and also served as an MEC chair. Not to drag this out and put it simply after the merge and positions red circled you will have people in positions out of seniority. All is good until there is a lay off or bids. The new red circled dash captain could be waiting for the jet money seat for some time. The seniority list will fix its self but it takes time.
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