Home made procedures

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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

I agree with everything you say !
And, it will take a few hundred feet for completion of transition
If i can recall, the transition involves a pitch up to the proper attitude, then power adjustment to obtain the correct descent rate. I don't recall transition taking a few hundred feet.

BTW, where on the LD curve is an established glassy water approach?
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PilotDAR
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by PilotDAR »

BTW, where on the LD curve is an established glassy water approach?
The front.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

Most piss pot lakes had swampy shore lines so you could get within inches of the ground before over the water. Small lakes with shore lines of trees it was always big enough to establish a glassy water landing configuration. Oh ya with no instruments trying to quote pitch angles and rates of decent was still by the ass of your pants
Do IFR pilots fly by the "ass of their pants" until they touch something firm?

You are not talking about a standard glassy water approach above.

Under identical conditions, pitch and power will give you a certain descent rate but what if 1 day you are empty and another day you are at gross ?

Once stabilized, a glance at the VSI will provide you with information as to whether you need to add or reduce power
Out in the lake with NO references to height, your only option is to establish touchdown attitude then adjust power for the proper descent rate, too little and you burn up distance and float when entering ground effect, necessitating a powered down flare! ( now, it's no longer a glassy water landing ) Too much descent rate and you stand a chance of A/C damage or nosing over from a bad pilot reaction .
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PilotDAR
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by PilotDAR »

Elsewhere (my bold);
...........I have introduced many simulations on check-outs I have given and I never hear that these specifically were being done in other places. I also do not recall that anyone was displeased although some were a little feather ruffled!.................

.........

This cracker is going to get someone killed. I don't think that requires any explanation.
I read that a person providing "training" is introducing "procedures" which that person believes are not trained anywhere else. This is a problem. It's kinda like "watch this" spoken in the cockpit. Why is the trainer not content to train to established procedures? Is the trainer aware of the peripheral safety factors which may reduced safety of their "home made" procedure, compared to the industry accepted procedure? Are these differences being briefed before the training? Is anything being briefed before the training? Training candidates have a right to expect their trainers to base the training on standardized procedures, most importantly for training safety, but also importantly, so that the training that they have received will be accepted in their next piloting environment (employer/insurer/TC/peers).

This goes to the heart of this topic: Students, your training should be briefed before it is flown, and the base procedures to which that training will be conducted, and the standard of success should be clear. If the trainer cannot show you in accepted training publications and the flight manual, the basis for the proposed training, you should question it!

As for moderation, this website is not a nation, or a political inclusion/exclusion area, it is a private "place" where the host may accept, or not, the conduct of participants. The fact that someone is able to type out whatever they want does not entitle them to post it wherever they want. Short of reporting posts suggesting piloting habits I know to be very high risk, I am powerless to delete the posts (here), but I sure have the ability to serve other pilots by posting to them my mentoring that they should be very cautious when considering some posted information.

I've done my share of not so bright things as a pilot. Where it can serve to mentor and educate, I have sometimes posted about it. The only time I was ever hurt in a plane, the training was exactly by the book, in ideal conditions, with a briefing and a briefed escape plan. Nothing is prefect, but we must try our best....
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

I read that a person providing "training" is introducing "procedures" which that person believes are not trained anywhere else
.

This is what I mean, nothing to do with procedures.
I have set up MANY students for a sim. forced approach, where the ONLY POSSIBLE SUCCESSFUL reaction to an immediate engine failure is to IMMEDIATELY turn HARD towards the most suitable landing spot and then figure out what the hell is happening! I have NEVER seen a student ( 100 hr or 10000 hr) do the only right thing. When they finally turned, most never "made" the field. MANY have thanked me for the very realistic check-outs I have provided for them.
Mind you, these are check-outs, not training 30 hr students I am speaking about. I include within the check-out, a scenario like the above to encourage the pilot to think about his/her own currency and in providing a real world scenario, I am hoping to instill a mindset of constant thinking of " what should I do now and how do I do it" Below 1000 feet on take-off , the pilot automatically knows every second his/her options of a dead stick landing, if not, are they a really good pilot or just along for the "accident"
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by PilotDAR »

I include within the check-out, a scenario......
If a pilot has agree to fly with a check pilot, that pilot has the expectation of either having their skills validated for a purpose (rental/job), or skill building. If it is a skills validation checkout, the only expectation will be the the candidate pilot demonstrate that they meet the minimum level of skill for an existing standard - NOT additional training - that's training! If it is to be training, it should be to a standard, and procedure which is industry accepted, and probably exceeds the scope of a checkout.

If you're using the occasion of a check out to train a pilot (other than a little skill building to meet the expected standard), it is possible that you are doing something which that pilot is not expecting, and you are not formally entitled to do - in some cases, this task is an instructor task, specifically so that there is some assurance that the training is being done to an accepted standard!

If you tried to train me to fly a 70 degree banked turn as an element of a forced approach, I would land you back wherever we came from, and walk away. If you expected me to do one on my own initiative when you pulled the power, we would disagree about the outcome of the checkout, when I refused to do it. I would require you to show me anywhere authoritative, where that was described in a procedure. You couldn't. Then if I continued to be dissatisfied, I would ask the operator or authority how this training would meet the standards. I wonder what they would say - admit to an association with a rogue check pilot?
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

Your post is beginning to sound like I would need an aviation lawyer in the back seat to assess my check - ride ! There are formal rides ( for the issuance or validation or renewal of an IFR rating etc ) then there are informal check rides ( for approval of an insurance company or a private company wanting to rent an aircraft or for providing a service to a buyer of an airplane etc etc ) For formal rides, I would certainly need an instructor rating, currency, and a syllabus to go by!
As i am NOT an instructor pilot ( I have only instructed on floats and of course, that was all legal ),,,, the instruction/evaluation/check-rides i have given were for the latter (informal) Let me suggest to you that the reason for a check-ride ( or check-out) are 2 fold. 1 is to determine if the pilot can safely fly the plane/any plane, and 2, that the pilot can fly THIS particular plane/type. If a pilot cannot fly ANY plane safely, what is the reason for recommending this same pilot for coverage on a specific plane OR recommending this pilot for rental on a SPECIFIC plane? So therefore a check-ride is to confirm the pilot has not bought a licence from somewhere in India AND that this pilot is provided with SPECIFIC type training on the type he /she is being approved for.
Let me reiterate , A pilot must be capable of flying A plane AND to fly a SPECIFIC plane in order to be approved.
If , during a check-out, it is found that the pilot cannot even fly straight and level to within 500 feet, then, it may be time for ab initio training !
If a pilot can fly an airplane well enough, BUT cannot seem to get a handle on the plane you are checking him/her out on ( maybe it has wheels on the upper wings? ) then it is time to go back to the paddock ( hangar ) and review the next steps before the pilot can be given approval

On another note, no one needs a toilet cleaning certificate or licence or rating to clean toilets just as no one needs an aircraft instructor licence or certificate or rating etc for instructing. (As long as it is legal of course )

On still another note, Who would you rather have checking you out on a specific plane, an instructor with 250 hours on a c-172 OR a 50 yr old with 4000 hours and MANY hours on the specific type being flown? What if that old pilot has accomplished a dead stick or 2 in the type and knows what to do ? What if, during the 2-3+ hour check-out, MUCH general AND specific information is given and taught so that the pilot is very well equipped to fly safely in his/her new type of aircraft ?

I perceive that regulations, procedures, liability, PC shaming and the alignment of the planets are sometimes getting in the way of good airmanship, common sense and safe flying !
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Ki-ll
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by Ki-ll »

A textbook definition of a rogue pilot.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

If a pilot has agree to fly with a check pilot, that pilot has the expectation of either having their skills validated for a purpose (rental/job), or skill building. If it is a skills validation checkout, the only expectation will be the the candidate pilot demonstrate that they meet the minimum level of skill for an existing standard
ANY private company can have their own "standard" , not an existing standard. Every job is different, landing a pilatus on the Kluane glacier is of a standard a little higher than landing a C-150 in Brampton Ontario.

There is NO existing standard for landing on a glacier lol ( that i know of )

IF someone wants to come to me for maintenance, their and my expectation is to the minimum standard BUT I may require the owner to adhere to a higher standard, They have the option of my services or another company. There is a company in Vernon that lives to a higher standard, WHO can judge them?

Sometimes , when one gets too bureaucratic and regulatorily correct, The big picture is missed ( due to various reasons) and accidents and deaths happen. When one is soooo insistent in adhering to a low standard, the elephant in the room is missed
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PilotDAR
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by PilotDAR »

Every job is different, landing a pilatus on the Kluane glacier is of a standard a little higher than landing a C-150 in Brampton Ontario.
No, the standard is different, not necessarily higher. At Brampton (where I learned in the '70's) they have a very high standard of expecting every pilot to land so as to remain on, and stop by the end of, the runway, and doing so is accomplished by following procedures presented for the plane. For all my ski flying, the procedures focus much more on technique, than achieving a landing in a defined lateral area, or to a stop in a given distance. For each, there are standards to be followed, they are different, and trying to compare them is of little value. More comparing apples to apples, landing a C 185 on wheels will have a Cessna procedure, and using that procedure, will produce defined distance results. Follow the Cessna procedure for landing the same 185 as a ski plane on snow, and the distance outcome will be much less well defined. You're not supposed to slide a tire, but slide skis to your heart's content - different standards, maybe not higher. Both the procedure and the outcome are different, but both have established procedures.

If an operator, a pilot, or a maintainer wants to exceed a standard with great technique or skill, wonderful, but that is done while continuing to follow the procedure for the task. Sure, torque even non structural fasteners when reassembling, but you still must use the proper torque wrench, and factors for extensions, rather than making up your own home made torquing procedure. Make up new control cables instead of passing the originals yet another year, but you can't make up your own swaging procedures, you can't just use visegrips! You must use the procedure, including inspection of the swag and testing. You're doing work to a very high standard, but not deviating from accepted procedures - right?

So yes;
ANY private company can have their own "standard" , not an existing standard.


As long as the "own" standard meets or exceeds the performance requirements for that task, and conforms to approved or accepted procedures:

CAR 571.02, for a refresher:
Persons who perform maintenance or elementary work are required to follow the manufacturer’s recommendations, or equivalent practices. Where the recommendations of the aircraft manufacturer are incompatible with those of the engine, propeller, or appliance manufacturer, the recommendations of the aircraft manufacturer shall be used. Where the manufacturer has not made specific recommendations, standard industry practices are to be used. These practices include, but are not limited to, methods published by Transport Canada, a foreign Civil Aviation Authority, the manufacturer of a similar product, or other practices that may not be published provided they are generally accepted by the Canadian aviation industry. Similar requirements apply to the selection of parts, materials, tools and test apparatus.
Nowhere in there does it say "make up your own standard or procedure".
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

Your standard must be equivalent or better than TC or approved in certain circumstances. I agree with what you are saying .

Once again, your input to all discussions on avcanada is INVALUABLE and appreciated and many appreciate your demeanor in the discussions . I appreciate being taken to task for anything i may say that is not appropriate and you do well in that regard !

Please continue your good work on this site !
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by PilotDAR »

So Mrs. DAR and I were watching the planes come and go at Vancouver harbour the other day. While respecting the operation, and discussing the heritage of float flying in the west, she remarked that she still did not want to get in a floatplane ever again. I can't blame her, my having been ejected from one is still on her mind. I'm okay with her preference not to fly floats any more. We discussed the different types. She remarked about a few Beaver floatplane accidents this summer (and she doesn't even know about some of them). We discussed the Caravans being newer planes, as we watched them come and go, and I reminded her that I think the age of the aircraft has little to do with risk, when the planes are well maintained, and aging aircraft factors are considered.

Later that day, four lives were lost in a Caravan not too far away. I doubt it was one of the ones we'd seen, but it could have been. Five more people survived, but I'm thinking of what they may be going through. The same day, two fatalities in a glider in Alberta. And, a 172 in Langley around that time.

I do not claim comprehensive knowledge of factors and causes for any of these events, I will believe in pilots doing their best, but it still went wrong. It's been a bad summer for light planes in Canada.

So, this reminds me that we, the experienced pilots, are not only responsible for the safe conduct of all of your flying, for everyone's sake, but also for responsible mentoring. Newer pilots read what is written here. We experienced pilots are responsible to the newer pilots to present them with our best information about flying safely. I have no reason to suspect that any accident our industry has suffered this summer is the result of any pilot deliberately doing something dumb, or failing to follow a procedure. I just don't know, and that's not the point of this manifesto. The point is to assert that we, who should know better, should mentor following procedures, and avoid posting about our home made, non standard, non conforming ideas about flying a plane. By the book pilots!

Who here wants to find out later that the next accident was because someone "tried" something that they read here. "TSB Investigator, So and So on AvCanada said a floatplane will xxx if I yyy it, so I gave it a try - and now we're talking", and I have to call back my insurance adjuster next. NO! Do it the published way, and don't have an accident! If you absolutely must have an accident, it should be: "TSB Investigator, I read the flight manual, I followed all of the published procedures, and it seemed that we still had a problem."

There are many things I have done flying planes which have worked, but I will never describe here - because they were not a good enough idea to mentor with. The one time I was right seat for an accident, everything was by the book, required training element, perfect conditions, pre briefing, and an easy escape plan, but it still went wrong. I can't even say what I'd do differently next time, it was by the book.

So I read here about "transitions" during glassy water approaches, pushing the nose into the water to shorten botched landings, and a few other non standard procedures like super steep <Vx climbouts. I'm not going to venture as to whether they have any benefit whatever, but I will say that I resist the idea that new pilots might read these wild ideas, and think it's some special secret tool in the bush pilot's toolbox, which they can use 'cause they read it here! They should not, and the poster should not have posted it. The new pilots should learn to anticipate and avoid situations which could appear to call upon such risky behaviour.

Our industry is in for a lot of scrutiny when the spray settles on all of these float flying accidents, TSB and TC are not going to just let this go by without comment/action. It's obviously time that we water fliers get ourselves in line with accepted procedures for water flying, to do our part to be as safe as possible, and hopefully not only prevent some accidents, but be seen to be preventing accidents by doing things properly.

Thank you for enduring my rant for the evening!
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by jakeandelwood »

Well said.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

Some accidents happen because experienced and very experienced pilots fly to their personal minimums and a little beyond . I used to fly to a set of minimums that was either CARS mins or close to it. My personal minimums were lower than that but were "an ace up the sleeve" I ask this : How many pilots have a dual standard, 1 standard is commercial and IAW the min. standards of the company/cars and the other 2nd standard is their own private standard ( which may be slowly evolving due to experience etc) that may be lower than legal standard ? I ask this because many accidents happen BECAUSE pilots went BELOW LEGAL minimums in forward viz or vertical viz. How many commercial pilots will end a flight or decide to not do a flight because it is below CARS mins, but during the flight , will go to their personal minimums ( if they have any ) to complete the flight ?
Disclaimer : I am NOT advocating going below the minimums as determined by Transport Canada.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

They should not, and the poster should not have posted it.
Should the poster who posted a water approach on wheels ( using the water to slow the a/c with the wheels ) to a small sandbar for a short field landing , be banned, or rather, should they be told they are fools or should the flying public be told that is a foolish maneuver or should young pilots be told to specifically avoid such illegal activities?

I would never try such a "STUNT" but to another, it is an everyday event.

We are progressing beyond the old russia and so I would expect that we have the ability to differentiate between what we were taught in school compared to what is being espoused on avcanada, Do not the fledgling little ones know that there are "mentors" willing to take a child in aviation beyond what they have been taught by greenish pilots and introduce them to the more advanced ways of aviating ? When a fresh comm pilot is hired to pilot a C-185 in the wilderness of northern Ontario, is there not some mentoring ( I was there ( Lockhart airways ) and there was next to NOTHING in mentoring ,,, I needed little anyways )

Do the companies that hire green pilots teach them all they need to know ??? Or do they learn much in the bush ?

I have a little daughter, she is in school, will I or the school prepare her for ALL the hazards of life ? YOU would be a FOOL to think that I or the school system can perfectly prepare a child for the world .

In a perfect world, I and the school would perfectly teach my child ALL things to protect her and see that she is as safe as possible. In a perfect world, the institutions of school and flying school and their first jobs would do the same .

I say this : Let there be ideas and other approaches to aviating BUT I also say this : Let there be fervent and substantial replies and rebuttals to any ideas other than what is accepted norms and what is known as safe. Let there be discussion as to what is being practiced that is SAFE but is beyond the norm but be acknowledged as such with wisdom !
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corethatthermal
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by corethatthermal »

Of course, in principle, I agree with everything you say in your last post DAR !
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by jakeandelwood »

Maybe there needs to be a standard disclaimer at the end of each post on this forum such as the ones on car commercials, "do not attempt, may or may not be trained professionals, may or may not be safe" like my Pappy always told me, if so and so jumped off a bridge would you?. This mentality now with "if it's on the internet it must be true" is a getting a bit ridiculous.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Home made procedures

Post by C.W.E. »

Are there any posters on this site that you will take advice from?
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