50 hours and no solo

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KissPlusOne
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by KissPlusOne »

What school do you attend? Have you flown with a senior instructor recently? 50 hours is getting on the extreme side of things.
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redlaser
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by redlaser »

Not everyone is cut out to become a pilot, be it a helicopter or an airplane, I once tried to teach a rally car driver to fly an airplane his reflex were such he almost got us both killed from over controlling the aircraft, After hours of training I told him to stick to rally cars, flying was not for him.
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jetstreams
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by jetstreams »

I have one better.....
I have spent about $35,000 still working to getting my PPL

I am at Sault College in the aviation program presently. Myself and my 3 roommates are going into our 3rd, and last year of the program next month, Sept 2019.

ALL of us our still working away, along with most of our class, trying to finish our Private PPL... We were suppose to be done the PPL last summer.

Most of us went over a month repeatedly between flights lesions, it was crazy. I did 2 flights in 3 months, roommate 3 flights in 4 months.

Now the school says if they can not get the class to the very minimum of our PPL before Sept, we have to take a year off of classes.
Something about academics being to far ahead of flight training. Hard to learn 3rd year class work, and still working on 1st year flight lesson plans...

So ya, almost 2 years at Sault College..about $35,000 spent in total with living cost..not even a private to show for it..
Pretty sure that one beats you sadly... :rolleyes: :shock:
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Last edited by jetstreams on Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:34 am, edited 9 times in total.
firstofficer
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by firstofficer »

We understand that aviation isn’t for everyone & some students are forced into training against their wishes & some just can’t grasp the skill and still be sane however you also have flight schools that exploit international students & strive to suck them dry. Many of them in Ontario alone. You’d be doing many aspiring pilots a favour by shaming the school that made you log 50 hours without soloing. In my previous school if you exceed 25 hours without soloing you’re dismissed from the course. In your case your instructor + the other participating staff took you for a spin. Save yourself and leave ASAP
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broken_slinky
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by broken_slinky »

laserstrike wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 2:19 pm Sounds like you need to find a new school, or give up on flying.
Yeah, either they're hosing you and you need to look for a different school or you just shouldn't be flying. If it's the latter, they should tell you instead of leading you on and just burning through your money.
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FlightSolutions
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by FlightSolutions »

pewdipie wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 12:51 pm Hi Guys,
I have 50 hours in total and no solo. The instructors keep saying i am not ready. What you guys think ?. Is it a good idea to move to different school ?. Do flight schools keep students from going solo ?.

Thanks,
Pewdipie
As a former Chief Flight Instructor this is unacceptable. Sounds like poor oversight and supervision which is not surprising with the the state flight training is in these days.

I councell aspiring pilots to educate themselves on the flight training standards. Know where you should be and if you don't meet those targets you better start asking why. If you let the Flight Training Unit spoon feed you, you will be taken advantage of and won't be able to recognize incompetence which is so rampant in the Flight Training Industry. Educating yourself is good practice if you plan on moving on and making it a career. Industry expects you to learn on your own these days with CBT being the norm. Look at it this way at $240/hour, the going rate for dual instruction, you've wasted nearly $8500. Thats a huge chunk of change. Gone. Wasted. Sure its hours in the logbook, but they are dual. Next to worthless in terms of licensing, and employment if you plan on taking it further. Anytime you invest in something, it is wise to do your education and research beforehand to get a good return on investment.

At 50 hours with incomplete information I can only assume that either you are completely incompetent and unable to learn, the flight training unit is taking advantage of you, or you're receiving incompetent instruction. I lean towards the second one, as the FTU's can recognize a sucker a mile away. If you'd educated yourself on the process and expectations, you should have been asking questions of why you haven't soloed after 15 hours, but hey it's your money to waste. 50 hours used to be the average to obtain a PPL back in my CFI days for a busy, controlled airport.

It's time to take a hard honest look at why you haven't soloed yet. Look at yourself and see if you're missing something. If not, back it up with the flight training standards. Otherwise take your business elsewhere, but do your research this time. When I was CFI I picked up a few people from other schools in your situation. The majority of them I was able to solo them the day they showed up. The rest it involved a core competency that wasn't enforced during BFM. I only had 1 person show up that just shouldn't be flying airplanes, and it was mostly due to fatigue from them showing up after the night shift.

Instructors fail to remember that students are not required to be at PPL flight test standards for the solo. They only have to be safe. They can bounce, land long, not hold altitude perfectly, etc, etc. Flying is easy. Flying precisely takes practice. The goal is to get to flight test standards at the end of training, not at the beginning. If you haven't read the Flight Examiners Guide, you should. Large deviations outside the Flight Test Guide are allowed as long as they are corrected and the overall goal of the exercise is met. They just have to manage those errors properly. Much of the time you can tell they are ready when the learning curve plateau's. Continued instruction would be just flogging a dead horse, and can make things worse. You will be wasting the students money and possibly lose them to another instructor or school.

Sometimes you just gotta let 'em go. You should be nervous when you send them up. It's time for them to learn on their own the hard way. Your job was to give them threat and error manage strategies to come out of it safely. If they truly are not ready, then it's time for the CFI. Continued instruction could actually hinder their progress.
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rookiepilot
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by rookiepilot »

Really.....If --- and I say IF --- this is a school taking advantage of students, foreign or otherwise--- instead of counselling them properly -- that school(s) should lose their OC. Note I said "IF".

Continuing to train someone who shouldn't be trained....is a legitimate safety issue for them and others, too............

This is a highly regulated industry,, sometimes an operator loses their OC --- and that standard should fully apply to flight schools.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
airway
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by airway »

pewdipie:

Any Updates?
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photofly
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:45 am Really.....If --- and I say IF --- this is a school taking advantage of students, foreign or otherwise--- instead of counselling them properly -- that school(s) should lose their OC. Note I said "IF".

Continuing to train someone who shouldn't be trained....is a legitimate safety issue for them and others, too............

This is a highly regulated industry,, sometimes an operator loses their OC --- and that standard should fully apply to flight schools.
That’s in the world where you’re King, of course.

While there are legitimate commercial and customer service issues, there’s no obvious safety issue about *not* sending someone on a solo flight, as evidenced by the zero number of CADORs reports about solo flights that didn’t happen.
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rookiepilot
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:51 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:45 am Really.....If --- and I say IF --- this is a school taking advantage of students, foreign or otherwise--- instead of counselling them properly -- that school(s) should lose their OC. Note I said "IF".

Continuing to train someone who shouldn't be trained....is a legitimate safety issue for them and others, too............

This is a highly regulated industry,, sometimes an operator loses their OC --- and that standard should fully apply to flight schools.
That’s in the world where you’re King, of course.

While there are legitimate commercial and customer service issues, there’s no obvious safety issue about *not* sending someone on a solo flight, as evidenced by the zero number of CADORs reports about solo flights that didn’t happen.
Point missed by a country mile.

If someone is trained by a competent school, and takes 50 + hours to go solo, should that person be a pilot, possibly taking responsibility for the lives of passengers? Perhaps they should be counselled.

If the school isn't competent or dishonest, and that's the problem, why should they hold an OC?

To me an OC is a privilege, that carries great responsibility-- not a right. Am I wrong?
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photofly
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by photofly »

Yes, you’re wrong.

Let’s not romanticize things, OK?

To hold an OC you need to meet the TC requirements to hold an OC. If you meet the requirements and TC refuses, you can ask the TATC (and from there the federal courts) to force the minister to reconsider. It’s not really a matter of discretion, nor should it be. (Yes, I’ve read section 6.71 of the Aeronautics Act.)
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PilotDAR
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by PilotDAR »

To me an OC is a privilege,
An OC is a "shall" rather than a "may" issue:
702.07 (1) Subject to section 6.71 of the Act, the Minister shall, on receipt of an application submitted in the form and manner required by the Commercial Air Service Standards, issue or amend an air operator certificate where the applicant demonstrates to the Minister the ability to
Where the application is conforming as described in the requirements, the Minister shall issue the OC, the Minister has no choice, unless the Minister can demonstrate that the applicant fails to meet the requirements. I won't go so far as to refer to the "shall" making the OC a "right" but it's more than a "privilege".

Conversely, the Minister "may" issue...
505.201 General ................. (c) Delegation of Authority may be granted in............
In which case, for that activity, the Minister is not required to delegation, the unsuccessful applicant has not means of recourse against TC, TC was not bound by a "shall" in regulation, just the possibility of a "may". So the various forms of delegation which may be available from TC are a privilege if issued.

So although we consider a license or an OC/AMO etc. a "privilege" (and it's a good way to think about it, from a behaviour point of view), it requires a demonstration of incompetence/ineligibility by the Minister to not have the license/OC/AMO issued to you, (action on the Minister's part to say/defend a "no" - you do have an avenue to challenge the "no") if your application otherwise meets the requirements.

As for the topic, yes, there are some very nice members of our society who just do not have the knack for being a pilot. And, there are some who are on the edge, so perhaps receive more/longer effort toward their desired success than others. I have flown with a few over the years, and yes, there have been a few PPL's to whom I have said that they have not even demonstrated the minimums for safe piloting, let alone the additional skills they have ask me to train them for. I felt badly being "direct", but I was simply unwilling to attempt to train them any more. They were free to train with another pilot should they wish (and I suggested it!). In both cases, my mentors told me that I had spent too long trying to train them, though I felt that I had to defend that when a new pilot pays for my to cross the country for two days of training, I feel obligated to give them the best I can for that two days, even if after the first couple of hours it's looking "unpromissing".

I knew a nice fellow, who owned the aircraft, and exceeded 200 hours training without going solo. He seemed entirely happy to have the instructor along for all of his flying, and did not appear to be worried about going solo. The instructor confided in me that this was as it should be, as the candidate really was better supervised all the time. Everyone seemed okay with the circumstances....
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photofly
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by photofly »

To add to the forgoing, for the meaning of incompetence” (which is a reason not to issue an aviation document) see this:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 2-6452.htm
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by mato »

jetstreams wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:59 am I have one better.....
I have spent about $35,000 still working to getting my PPL

I am at Sault College in the aviation program presently. Myself and my 3 roommates are going into our 3rd, and last year of the program next month, Sept 2019.

ALL of us our still working away, along with most of our class, trying to finish our Private PPL... We were suppose to be done the PPL last summer.

Most of us went over a month repeatedly between flights lesions, it was crazy. I did 2 flights in 3 months, roommate 3 flights in 4 months.

Now the school says if they can not get us to the very minimum of our PPL before Sept, we have to take a year off of classes. Hard to learn 3rd year class work, and still working on 1st year flight lesson plans...

So ya, almost 2 years at Sault College..about $35,000 spent in total with living cost..not even a private to show for it..
Pretty sure that one beats you sadly... :rolleyes: :shock:
At least you should have known what you were getting into as Sault College has been this way for the past decade. :rolleyes:
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Chris M
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by Chris M »

airway wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:33 pm pewdipie:

Any Updates?
I wouldn't get too excited - his only activity was these four posts the day he joined, hasn't been back since.
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jetstreams
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by jetstreams »

jetstreams wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:59 am I have one better.....
I have spent about $35,000 still working to getting my PPL

I am at Sault College in the aviation program presently. Myself and my 3 roommates are going into our 3rd, and last year of the program next month, Sept 2019.

ALL of us our still working away, along with most of our class, trying to finish our Private PPL... We were suppose to be done the PPL last summer.

Most of us went over a month repeatedly between flights lesions, it was crazy. I did 2 flights in 3 months, roommate 3 flights in 4 months.

Now the school says if they can not get the class to the very minimum of our PPL before Sept, we have to take a year off of classes.
Something about academics being to far ahead of flight training. Hard to learn 3rd year class work, and still working on 1st year flight lesson plans...

So ya, almost 2 years at Sault College..about $35,000 spent in total with living cost..not even a private to show for it..
Pretty sure that one beats you sadly... :rolleyes: :shock:
Agree Mato, Just did not know. More posts on social media from students speaking up would of helped for sure though!
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nandobarreto
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by nandobarreto »

Usually I just read here, but i sign up to give my 2 cents:
I guess the opinion of most here is correct, sometimes the person is not able to fly, thats a true fact.

I'm almost finishing my ppl (last cross country tomorrow) and I had some issues with landing, I was pretty good landing with wind (cross or head), but without any wind I just couldnt land.
I had my solo with ~35h, but I requested to do many more flights with my instructor to be able to land properly in any circumstance.
Sometimes it took time for the person to adjust, in my case, about 4h more after my first solo.

In my particular case i can say that my instructor let me solo before I have enough skills.
Say that a person cant fly just because he has XX and wasnt able to solo, is not something correct.
Where I live the winds are very strong, it takes times to learn what to do in those circumstances.
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mircea172S
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by mircea172S »

Sounds like your getting ripped off, i would switch instructors if not change flight schools.
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Squaretail
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by Squaretail »

I had my solo with ~35h, but I requested to do many more flights with my instructor to be able to land properly in any circumstance.
Sometimes it took time for the person to adjust, in my case, about 4h more after my first solo.

In my particular case i can say that my instructor let me solo before I have enough skills.
In all honesty, if you think that people aren't to solo unless they can handle "everything" you're not seeing the big picture in how flight training works. The process from solo to license finish more than adequately provides the experience necessary by the end, assuming a reasonably competent instructor. The nature of training past the first solo should be carefully controlled so a student gets a mixture of solo practice to increase their proficiency and instructor monitoring to make sure they aren't going astray. You aren't alone, however in feeling that only you can adequately judge your own progress. Add this to the many factors that have led to the increases in flight training times. Unfortunately, how the student "feels" about their flight training is often more important than objective results, and often you can't blame instructors that cater to the demand. Couple this with the "customer is always right" mentality that pervades today's world to reduce flight training efficiencies across the board.

Ultimately, everyone gets the flight instruction they want.
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Re: 50 hours and no solo

Post by co-joe »

Ask to see you PTR. It's yours and it's your right to see what's written in it about you and your progress or lack thereof. When I instructed I usually wrote up the PTR with the student's present so they knew exactly where they stood, and what they needed to work on most.
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