Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

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Coppertop401
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Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Coppertop401 »

So I've been out pounding the pavement as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums. On top of that these companies are posting ads month after month, and as best I can tell the positions remain open and unfilled. These are all good companies to work for however If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring. Like any low time pilot i'm simply looking for a start. Curious who needs the reality check, me or them?

Any thoughts!
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fish4life
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by fish4life »

With the attitude of if u had 1500 hours I’d be at Jazz them may see right through you and move onto the next person
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porcsord
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by porcsord »

There's a shortage of experienced pilots. 500hrs is the same as 250... that's a 2 month difference in the busy season.

My company has minimums. We stick to them. Why? Because we would rather have an airplane on the ground, then have it flown by someone who is not experienced enough in our opinion (see sub 2500hr pilots). Yes you may be qualified for GGN, Encore or Jazz at that point, but guess what, we pay better, have a better schedule, have all the other benefits (RRSP match, plenty of vacation, health plan, LTD...), and to be frank, your perspective at this point in your career in not important in determining what we think is required to fly our aircraft.

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shimmydampner
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner »

Coppertop401 wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:31 am as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums.
.....
If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring.
First: 1500 hours is not a lofty or unreasonable amount of experience. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, it's hardly any experience at all.
Second: The ironing is delicious. You want to talk about a complete disconnect from reality? You are bemoaning the fact that some operators are too "choosy" to hire you at 500 hours because if you actually met their experience requirements, you could get a job at one of the airlines that will basically take anyone with a pulse.
Kids these days...
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Aviatard
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Aviatard »

shimmydampner wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:47 pm The ironing is delicious.
:D
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mixturerich
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by mixturerich »

fish4life wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:16 pm With the attitude of if u had 1500 hours I’d be at Jazz them may see right through you and move onto the next person
He’s not wrong though, and he only said he “could be a candidate”. The guy is going out there, working hard. and applying in person by the sounds of it and I don’t really sense the entitlement like you do.

Why are you guys such dicks to young people asking questions on here? Always so trigger happy with the “your attitude stinks” comments. Get a life already and try actually helping and supporting the new prospective pilots in the industry. Many of us had our slice of humble pie at one point, I’m sure you did too.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by C-GGGQ »

shimmydampner wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:47 pm
Coppertop401 wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:31 am as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums.
.....
If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring.
First: 1500 hours is not a lofty or unreasonable amount of experience. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, it's hardly any experience at all.
Second: The ironing is delicious. You want to talk about a complete disconnect from reality? You are bemoaning the fact that some operators are too "choosy" to hire you at 500 hours because if you actually met their experience requirements, you could get a job at one of the airlines that will basically take anyone with a pulse.
Kids these days...
Sorry man 1500 is pretty lofty for right seat on single pilot machines for sub min wage and max duty/ min rest
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kilocharliemike
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by kilocharliemike »

Coppertop401 wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:31 am So I've been out pounding the pavement as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums. On top of that these companies are posting ads month after month, and as best I can tell the positions remain open and unfilled. These are all good companies to work for however If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring. Like any low time pilot i'm simply looking for a start. Curious who needs the reality check, me or them?

Any thoughts!
So on pilot career centers opening Canada webpage alone there are about 4-5 or more operators with current postings for fo spots from bare commercial to 800 tt. I particularly like the ornge one asking 500tt. I would have liked that job back when I had your time. There is a lot out there man!
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iflyforpie
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by iflyforpie »

Are you looking at the Sunwest ad in YYC? Because that’s pretty much the only one I see that fits the bill of 1500 hours (not 2500) single pilot machine, and minimum wage (not sure what they pay but it probably isn’t much).

Carson is 750 for the Metro, CMA is 1000 for a 1900, Bearskin is 750, Perimeter is 500, EVAS is 750, etc etc. You’re actually over qualified for today’s winner.. North Wright aviation at 200TT.

So no... I don’t see a disconnect at all. For those of us who lived through the Bad Old Days, you needed 1000 hours to go to the middle of BFN and slog a Navajo or Metro or King Air around from the right seat... or those who were really really lucky threw bags for a year or two and then got on a 1900 at 250TT.

I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
digits_
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ »

iflyforpie wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:26 am Are you looking at the Sunwest ad in YYC? Because that’s pretty much the only one I see that fits the bill of 1500 hours (not 2500) single pilot machine, and minimum wage (not sure what they pay but it probably isn’t much).

Carson is 750 for the Metro, CMA is 1000 for a 1900, Bearskin is 750, Perimeter is 500, EVAS is 750, etc etc. You’re actually over qualified for today’s winner.. North Wright aviation at 200TT.

So no... I don’t see a disconnect at all. For those of us who lived through the Bad Old Days, you needed 1000 hours to go to the middle of BFN and slog a Navajo or Metro or King Air around from the right seat... or those who were really really lucky threw bags for a year or two and then got on a 1900 at 250TT.

I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.
You are missing his point. In your example carson, evas and bearskin require 750 tt. At 1000 tt pilots can get picked up by regional airlines. So pilots join the 704 operator, sign a bond if required and leave after 4 months when the regional calls.
The 704 operator then scratches is head why people leave so quickly and have to pay for training for the next guy. Why do they not hire 200tt pilots? I asked one of them: to save on training costs. That doesn't make sense. Spending twice the money on a 200tt pilot who sticks around 4 times as long will save the 704 compamy money.

So yeah, there definitely is a disconnect.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner »

I think the disconnect is at least in part, a generational thing. Back in the bad old days, the question always asked on here was something along the lines of, "How can I get the XXXX hours required for these jobs when there are no entry level jobs available to build that time." People were searching for ways to make themselves more employable and to build their experience. Now the question is always, "If there's a pilot shortage going on, why aren't companies lowering their standards in order that I might be employable with little to no experience." Similar problem, but two very different questions that suggest different mindsets.
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digits_
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ »

You know, for a generation making fun of the "sensitive snowflakes", you sure place a lot of importance on how the topic starter's question was worded :wink:
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by mixturerich »

[quote=iflyforpie post_id=1085700 time=1564846010 user_id=16238]
I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.
[/quote]

Exactly, even a nice bit of 500 hours of something will show you the “crude” aspect of flying. No expensive formal training, sop’s, or automation.

But honestly the planes are getting even easier to learn and fly these days and the SOP’s are getting very thorough. Plus frequent memo’s that cover even more miscellaneous scenarios.

I think if China can train and employ local cadets at the rate they are going, fly all those flights over there, and not be crashing too many airliners, I think we can handle ourselves over here in Canada.

Ideally everyone flies the bush and operates a twin before going to bigger airlines, but hellooo, it’s pretty obvious now that there’s a pretty epic pilot shortage looming.
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shimmydampner
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner »

digits_ wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:01 am You know, for a generation making fun of the "sensitive snowflakes", you sure place a lot of importance on how the topic starter's question was worded :wink:
Your words, not mine. But at the end of the day, you can spend your time wondering and wishing for the world to be the way you wish it was, or you can operate according to the reality of the situation. If you choose the former, just don't bitch about it to people who choose the latter.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

A lot of companies have lowered their minimums by pretty much half in the last five years...that to me is scary. Just to fill the seat? I constantly fly with new 250-750TT FOs and they are, I’m sorry to say it, no good help for the most part. They are great people, but some do think they already deserve AC at 24 years old..They lack experience, outside the box thinking, common sense, are very reactive and don’t have a whole lot to fall back on when shit hits the fan. Yes there a select few who really know their stuff and SOPs, but for a 4500+TT hour captain, it really helps me when I can fly with a somewhat experienced FO. No joke, I asked for input on a decision that you make as crew from one of our FOs and he simply said “I don’t know, I’m not really experienced enough”. When you try to coach, teach and show them how you do the job on a constant basis with FO turn over being less than a few months, burnout is something that happens quite regularly. It is very much a single pilot feel at the regional level. So, I do prefer flying with a +1500hr FO. The airlines is no place for a training environment. We are flying paying customers, not doing VFR circuits and I shouldn’t have to use half my brain power and time to teach how to land a plane. That takes my focus away on other important tasks such as flying the plane, thinking about operational issues, weather, OTP, safety of the operation, MELs, logbook etc, the big picture. End of rant? Maybe I’m grumpy :rolleyes:
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by mixturerich »

FOD_Vacuum wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm A lot of companies have lowered their minimums by pretty much half in the last five years...that to me is scary. Just to fill the seat? I constantly fly with new 250-750TT FOs and they are, I’m sorry to say it, no good help for the most part. They are great people, but some do think they already deserve AC at 24 years old..They lack experience, outside the box thinking, common sense, are very reactive and don’t have a whole lot to fall back on when shit hits the fan. Yes there a select few who really know their stuff and SOPs, but for a 4500+TT hour captain, it really helps me when I can fly with a somewhat experienced FO. No joke, I asked for input on a decision that you make as crew from one of our FOs and he simply said “I don’t know, I’m not really experienced enough”. When you try to coach, teach and show them how you do the job on a constant basis with FO turn over being less than a few months, burnout is something that happens quite regularly. It is very much a single pilot feel at the regional level. So, I do prefer flying with a +1500hr FO. The airlines is no place for a training environment. We are flying paying customers, not doing VFR circuits and I shouldn’t have to use half my brain power and time to teach how to land a plane. That takes my focus away on other important tasks such as flying the plane, thinking about operational issues, weather, OTP, safety of the operation, MELs, logbook etc, the big picture. End of rant? Maybe I’m grumpy :rolleyes:
Solid rant.
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digits_
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ »

FOD_Vacuum wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm A lot of companies have lowered their minimums by pretty much half in the last five years...that to me is scary. Just to fill the seat? I constantly fly with new 250-750TT FOs and they are, I’m sorry to say it, no good help for the most part. They are great people, but some do think they already deserve AC at 24 years old..They lack experience, outside the box thinking, common sense, are very reactive and don’t have a whole lot to fall back on when shit hits the fan. Yes there a select few who really know their stuff and SOPs, but for a 4500+TT hour captain, it really helps me when I can fly with a somewhat experienced FO. No joke, I asked for input on a decision that you make as crew from one of our FOs and he simply said “I don’t know, I’m not really experienced enough”. When you try to coach, teach and show them how you do the job on a constant basis with FO turn over being less than a few months, burnout is something that happens quite regularly. It is very much a single pilot feel at the regional level. So, I do prefer flying with a +1500hr FO. The airlines is no place for a training environment. We are flying paying customers, not doing VFR circuits and I shouldn’t have to use half my brain power and time to teach how to land a plane. That takes my focus away on other important tasks such as flying the plane, thinking about operational issues, weather, OTP, safety of the operation, MELs, logbook etc, the big picture. End of rant? Maybe I’m grumpy :rolleyes:
I don't see anything wrong with what you describe. You asked input, the FO honestly said he didn't know. I think that is commendable. Much better than someone who tries to half ass guess what you might want him to say so you think he knows what he is doing.
There is a reason you are the captain and he is the FO. Ask for input, sure, but in the end you should still be able to make the decision yourself, which you did according to your post.

If you truly have to use half your brain power during routine operations to supervise the FO, then it could be the case that in your example the problem is on the left side (captain not comfortable enough with the plane and/or the operations) of the plane instead of the right side, or on the dispatch and operational side (pairing one captain with too many new FOs or working the captains too hard). Mentoring an FO is an essential part of the job as a captain. Routinely flying the plane shouldn't occupy 50% of your brain capacity, so you should have plenty left.

The experience the FO get has to come from somewhere. One source could be the mentoring captains. You are training the FO so the next captain will have a bit of an easier life.

Every FO at his first airline job will require some degree of training on the line. That's just the way things are, and I don't think there is any feasible alternative. You could apply the European requirement of doing 3 landings in an actual airplane for your typerating, but that doesn't help you during line indoc.
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by a313 »

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Blackdog0301
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Blackdog0301 »

I have a similar experience as FOD vacuum. I work for a company that prefers to hire 1500 hourish pilots for a 1900 FO position. And let me tell you, some of these FOs that have this amount of time (usually all instructing) STILL need to be babied with every aspect of their flying. I swear sometimes it feels like I’m flying single pilot because I’m having to coach the guy beside me how to work with CRFI numbers, how to calculate IFR alternate requirements, how to use performance charts, etc. It makes some captains grow grey hair very quickly, so you can imagine the babysitting required when putting a 500 hour guy in a high performance, pressurized airplane.

Not sure if it’s proven or not, but I’m almost certain that it’s cheaper for companies to put up with a shortage of pilots while waiting for the right experience to come along than to spend thousands and thousands of dollars teaching a 250 hour pilot how to fly an ILS approach. I’ve heard stories of companies hiring 1000 hour pilots who have just finished their IFR rating, and have never actually flown into a single cloud in their life. Then the training that’s supposed to be aircraft specific and company specific, turns into “how to fly in IMC without becoming disoriented.” Because let’s face it, flying around with some cheap goggles on to simulate IFR is NOWHERE CLOSE to what it actually feels like to fly an ILS approach down to minimums in actual IMC... at night... with a crosswind... in a snow storm...
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RollingThunder
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Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by RollingThunder »

The aviation industry in Canada is now experiencing what almost all other industries have faced for a very very long time. And most companies and are having a hard time coming to terms with what is happening. The aviation industry will now have to compete with all the other industries for younger generation employees of the future. Its a skilled trade and your going to have to start paying like a skilled trade. Plain and simple, or close up shop which I predict many smaller ops will do instead of changing with the times or competing with other industries for skilled workers.
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Last edited by RollingThunder on Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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