What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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digits_
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ »

GoinVertical wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am

In my (limited experience) they make it through line indoc because they're not TOO far behind the curve for a new hire, but they end up not progressing beyond this point. It's one thing to have a fresh FO a little behind the aircraft, another to have an FO that's been flying the same aircraft for a years still not able to cope.

That is an interesting statement. If a certain level of flying is acceptable at the end of line indoc, then why is it not acceptable one year later? It might prevent upgrades if there is no progress, but by itself, why would the fo have to be let go? After all you accepted his level of flying after line indoc...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by GoinVertical »

digits_ wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 pm
GoinVertical wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am

In my (limited experience) they make it through line indoc because they're not TOO far behind the curve for a new hire, but they end up not progressing beyond this point. It's one thing to have a fresh FO a little behind the aircraft, another to have an FO that's been flying the same aircraft for a years still not able to cope.

That is an interesting statement. If a certain level of flying is acceptable at the end of line indoc, then why is it not acceptable one year later? It might prevent upgrades if there is no progress, but by itself, why would the fo have to be let go? After all you accepted his level of flying after line indoc...
Do you expect a new FO on a 705 machine to be at the same skill level after one month as after one year?

I understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately companies don't want to have new FO's stuck flying with training captains for 6 months, even if they only have 500 TT.
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corethatthermal
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal »

That’s a lot of flight tests, check rides and recurrent training to get through without being caught.
And here is the "old boys club" How many good cops will report a bad cop? The good cops know the bad cop makes them look bad !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rigpiggy »

trust me someone in mgmt will know, and they will brush it under the carpet...... because if the front seats aren't filled it isn't going anywhere
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by AuxBatOn »

GoinVertical wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:52 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 pm
GoinVertical wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 am

In my (limited experience) they make it through line indoc because they're not TOO far behind the curve for a new hire, but they end up not progressing beyond this point. It's one thing to have a fresh FO a little behind the aircraft, another to have an FO that's been flying the same aircraft for a years still not able to cope.

That is an interesting statement. If a certain level of flying is acceptable at the end of line indoc, then why is it not acceptable one year later? It might prevent upgrades if there is no progress, but by itself, why would the fo have to be let go? After all you accepted his level of flying after line indoc...
Do you expect a new FO on a 705 machine to be at the same skill level after one month as after one year?

I understand where you're coming from, but unfortunately companies don't want to have new FO's stuck flying with training captains for 6 months, even if they only have 500 TT.

No, but someone should have proven he/she is safe and effective in its FO duties and that minimum standard should not chamge. The expectations may change as they progress but that should only impact upgrades.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by ajet32 »

Don't know who some of you self appointed and self righteous super pilots are but I have flown with a few. I am now training on the most advanced aircraft I have ever had the pleasure to sit in. I do know that some years back several super pilots tried very hard to sewer my career. Well I kept at it and now will soon be both an instructor and ACP on what I believe is the most advanced aircraft ever produced in Canada and for that matter maybe the world.
As an ACP/Check Airman I have seen some pretty super smug pilots go wandering down the path of destruction. Some even when the weak FO, SO was trying to prevent it. So I would say best advice; let the regulator and the training departments/checking folks determine what happens. I doubt you have the full picture and assisting in destroying someones career will not end well for you. If you aren't sued you will get a name that wont help you down the road. No one wants to sit with someone who they think is always looking for a way ahead through their mistakes. Oh and we all make them, daily.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Capt. Underpants »

rigpiggy wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:12 pm trust me someone in mgmt will know, and they will brush it under the carpet...... because if the front seats aren't filled it isn't going anywhere
I've worked in a fair number of outfits over the last 40+ years and can honestly say I only saw management behave in this way at one of them. In that case, the tune quickly changed when an accident happened involving a new hire who wasn't competent.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by flying4dollars »

digits_ wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 pm
corethatthermal wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:48 pm
I would never condone slandering another human in the workplace or giving out a bad/negative reference. I have however seen the systems in place through the training departments work to remove these individuals from the operating environment or keeping them in a first officers position indefinitely.
YOU are not part of the solution but part of the problem ! Your "old boys club" mentality will get innocent people killed !
I suppose you would say : "Well Bill is an OK co-pilot AND he has a wonderful personality and always helps out individuals" (( BUT you would NEVER allow your family to ride in the back of a plane where he is Single PIC! Hypocrite !))
It's not that easy. Are you willing to destroy someone's career at 2000 hours because you don't think they will improve at some point?
The example stated was an FO. What experience did he have before? Straight into an FO job from flight school? Who trained him? What is the problem precisely? Is the FO afraid to speak up? To be rushed? What if the problem is the interaction between the CPT and the FO? Are there any CPTs that are happy with the FO's performance?

Not every pilot needs to be a captain at some day either. Some people can function as an FO indefinitely, some will most likely be happy in that position as well.

However, if the pilot does not perform up to standards, then that should be reported. SMS might be an empty shell at some companies, but even there I hope someone will at least read it and look into it.

It surely is a tough decision.
I get where you're coming from with that statement but disagree. Essentially the copilot serves one of 2 functions beyond just being there to assist the PIC. When you are a first officer, you are (and should be) a captain in training. Second, when you are a first officer, you become pilot in command should the PIC become incapacitated. That being said, you should have a level of competency that would allow you to step into that role in the unlikely event something should happen to the captain.

When I did line indoc, one factor in a lot of my decisions on whether I'd sign the guy off or not was "can he safely bring this bird down in the event I become incapacitated. If the answer was yes, he's got a sig. If it's not, he doesn't get signed off. There are of course other considerations, but you get the gist.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by shimmydampner »

ajet32 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:19 pm ssisting in destroying someones career will not end well for you
I don't think anyone here is advocating "destroying someone's career" just for the sake of doing it. It sounds to me like there is a genuine safety concern, and if that is the case, I believe it should be brought forward through the correct channels and dealt with in the correct manner. Unfortunately, someone's feelings may have to get hurt, ego bruised and a career may be a casualty of that process, but not everyone is cut out to be a pilot. There is too much at stake to tolerate incompetence.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by oldtimer »

I good discussion on the actions someone should or can take when crewed with a less than stellar pilot but any suggestions when one comes across a totally incompetent private pilot who is flying his own airplane. Especially when you see him/her loading trusting passengers. I knew of a couple of private pilots who were a total mess. One flew a single place airplane in a reckless manner but survived and another who flew a wreck of an airplane in weather when others stayed put. Unfortunately he did not survive.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood »

What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

jakeandelwood wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
If the company is big enough, anon sms and get out of there.

S.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. »

screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Tell him you will not fly with him and you are quitting and want to go back to the parking area.

If he refuses stop the engines and get off the airplane.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by switchflicker »

schnitzel2k3 wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:03 pm
jakeandelwood wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
If the company is big enough, anon sms and get out of there.

S.
First - talk to him about your concerns and if no joy,
Second do the SMS report thing and hope for some positive action
Third DON'T wait until you are in the A/C and taxiing to tell him that you don't want to fly with him and that you are quitting and want to go back to the parking area. Grab some class and do your quitting without involving dispatch, ATC and of course the reason we fly... The Passengers.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. »

First - talk to him about your concerns and if no joy,
How stupid of me not to have thought of that.
What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Considering what the original poster said in the above quote that should work like a charm.

Oh well considering I am getting old and getting a bit senile I hope you will cut me some slack. :prayer:
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal »

CWE Your last post was priceless Brought a smile to my face thanks !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. »

CWE Your last post was priceless Brought a smile to my face thanks !
Thanks.

The truth is I hold these types of people in utter contempt because they demean our profession by deliberately circumventing the rules and by putting the public in unnecessary danger.

It is even more egregious for so called chief pilots to flaunt the rules.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by SRV »

ajet32 wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:19 pm Don't know who some of you self appointed and self righteous super pilots are but I have flown with a few. I am now training on the most advanced aircraft I have ever had the pleasure to sit in. I do know that some years back several super pilots tried very hard to sewer my career. Well I kept at it and now will soon be both an instructor and ACP on what I believe is the most advanced aircraft ever produced in Canada and for that matter maybe the world.
As an ACP/Check Airman I have seen some pretty super smug pilots go wandering down the path of destruction. Some even when the weak FO, SO was trying to prevent it. So I would say best advice; let the regulator and the training departments/checking folks determine what happens. I doubt you have the full picture and assisting in destroying someones career will not end well for you. If you aren't sued you will get a name that wont help you down the road. No one wants to sit with someone who they think is always looking for a way ahead through their mistakes. Oh and we all make them, daily.

I sure hope I never have the displeasure of dealing with your super advanced ego on a check ride...sounds like you should get used to the TATC process Mr. ACP/check airman...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:06 pm
screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Tell him you will not fly with him and you are quitting and want to go back to the parking area.

If he refuses stop the engines and get off the airplane.
At the time I wouldn't dare do that, but 12 years later I totally would. Funny how as you get older you put up with less BS
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by lownslow »

Anyone nervous this thread is about them?
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