What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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valleyboy
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy »

Nope it's always the other guy all pilots are the best -- just ask them or try and train them !!!!!
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AuxBatOn
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by AuxBatOn »

jakeandelwood wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Is he busting weather limits or is he merely going in legal but marginal weather? What kind of risk is he taking (by the way, you are taking risks every day by flying and airplane. It’s a matter of whet her or not you have the authority to take that risk)? Being a “get er done” type isn’t necessarily bad, as long as rules are adhered to and smart airmanship is applied while assessing risk vs reward.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by goingnowherefast »

-Approach minimums are a personal limitation.
-Barber pole is a target, not a limit.
-MTOW weight is just a suggestion.
-Icing is slippery, so makes the plane fly faster.
-WAAS gives you an ILS everywhere.
-What do you need the second inverter for (or any other important redundant systen)
-Just have them fill up the O2 when you get back
-The rules are designed for the lowest common denominator

Usually said by below average pilots/scummy managers
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Alav
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav »

Non cockpit experience talking here.

Remember the saying - anytime you point the finger at someone there's 3 pointed back at you?

Construction industry, I used to bitch and moan about the sh++y arse helpers/apprentices they assigned me with. I clued in one day - the kid I was 'stuck' with was completely useless. Bounced between all the crews, everyone's last choice, had been there 6+ months at that point. Useless at bits on a pull.

Nobody ever took the time to teach him. Do you know what we're doing here? Do you know what our next step needs to be? What are the hazards of what you're doing right now?

Which then he started catching on... Then the theory discussions started happening. The comprehension and his abilities skyrocketed. 20 years later he's a top wrench moving into management.

I'm no commercial pilot, but I really wonder some days how much has been lost of the old training practices. Even attitudes in this thread does point that maybe this CRM training you guys do - may be lacking some basics...
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Alav wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm I'm no commercial pilot, but I really wonder some days how much has been lost of the old training practices. Even attitudes in this thread does point that maybe this CRM training you guys do - may be lacking some basics...
That's a bit of a double-edged sword. Assuming we're talking a larger operator, they have a training and standards group who are supposed to put pilots on the line who are qualified - and safe. Line pilots shouldn't be there to supplement that system when it lets unsafe people through. But they must have a way to advise that department of their concerns when they show through.

Many line captains are great teachers by example. You feel part of a team and you learn by watching them work. Then there are the few who spend their time trying to prove they know more than you. They demand that their techniques be the SOP and fly the airplane with their mouth on your leg. Any FO who'd dare stand up to them is immediately branded a problem child. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I've seen it happen.
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Alav
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav »

But your FTU is like an apprenticeship school year. Starts the basis of the knowledge - you spend the next 6-9months out in the field applying that knowledge, on the job learning and gaining more skills.

You don't go to a flight school and come out ready to fly a 787, it's very much an apprenticeship like education. FTU is the basic school part, where you prove you understand the basics, that right seat time is where you're actually gaining the experience and learning
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goingnowherefast
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by goingnowherefast »

Yes, most people are honestly trying to improve. Just need to try different avenues and mentoring techniques. I find it very rewarding to see a weak FO make steady improvement. It's fantastic to see them rock the captain upgrade and now mentoring new FOs. A slow/weak start doesn't mean they won't turn out to be superb pilots.

I had one FO say that they were good enough and were going to coast... Somebody who snuck though every evaluation at the bare minimum standard, now decided they were good enough and didn't try to improve. This was at 2000-3000tt as well. How do you teach or mentor with that attitude? Some people shouldn't make it as a career, but generally it's because they don't want to devote the required effort to make it.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by jakeandelwood »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:30 am
jakeandelwood wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:40 am What do you do in the case of a pilot who is an awesome pilot but constantly pushes weather (and promoted it), takes risks, screw the checklist we're 1 minute behind and is a "get er done" company man? The company loves him and he just happens to be the Chief pilot.
Is he busting weather limits or is he merely going in legal but marginal weather? What kind of risk is he taking (by the way, you are taking risks every day by flying and airplane. It’s a matter of whet her or not you have the authority to take that risk)? Being a “get er done” type isn’t necessarily bad, as long as rules are adhered to and smart airmanship is applied while assessing risk vs reward.
I was flying with him on an approach, I can't remember if it was a NDB or a GPS, non precision anyway, he said " you can safely go 200' below minimums on this approach" I didn't really know how to respond I just said "yes YOU could"
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rwm1273
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 »

rigpiggy wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:12 pm trust me someone in mgmt will know, and they will brush it under the carpet...... because if the front seats aren't filled it isn't going anywhere
I suspect with much of this person's experience, it has been just to ensure there was a warm body in the copilot seat.

As to other questions, yes I did speak with the FO and I spent a fair amount of time trying to explain the aircraft and provided plenty of examples of errors and the possible consequences. There is no point when the hamster is dead.

And to add to this, this individual uses their special standing in our society to blame others for their mistakes and to explain why they have not gotten an upgrade. when you are of that character and have a history of destroying other people's careers when you do get washed out (as has happened at a few previous companies with this person) you really need to take serious precautions to protect yourself from any false accusations.

As for being told to find another career, I have been informed by a few of this individual's instructors that they would not continue to train this person and they should look at finding another profession. Well this person eventually did pass, and now is working in the industry, and might be flying with you next.

As for it being difficult to learn a new type, this does not explain issues such as handling the radios which this person has no clue. For example, this individual made not one but 3 radios calls to say "Rolling" when we were in a backtrack on an uncontrolled field but there was another aircraft on approach. I could provide many more examples, but I think this is one where even after explaining the situation and the consequences this individual didn't think it was a big deal.

All I'm saying is this person should not be flying. And I doubt more training would help. It didn't in the 9 months this person was flying for us. You can only explain so many times how to start the APU to someone before you realize they will never understand it.
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rwm1273
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 »

Alav wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm

Nobody ever took the time to teach him. Do you know what we're doing here? Do you know what our next step needs to be? What are the hazards of what you're doing right now?

With some there is no way to teach. Trust me, if you fly with the person I'm posting about, you will understand. It will be a real eye-opener that this person has gotten so far in their career.
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ant_321
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by ant_321 »

We’ve all flown with one or two of these guys. If you’re at a reputable company you can report it to the training department or SMS it. If others do the same it will probably be taken care of. At a smaller or sketchy operation there isn’t much you can do other than talk to them and management about it and if nothing gets done just refuse to fly with the person. I’ve flown with 3 guys in my career who I felt really should do something else. One did realize it wasn’t for them, one is still slogging along in the right seat of a turbo prop at about 8k total time (what I’ve been told anyway) and another is now a captain at Air Canada. I like to believe that the guy who eventually ended up at AC was just a late bloomer who eventually figured it out. With that said, if I show up to an AC flight and see him in the cockpit I’m not sure I would take my family on board.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 »

ant_321 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:54 am With that said, if I show up to an AC flight and see him in the cockpit I’m not sure I would take my family on board.
My concern isn't just for the passengers on that flight, but the schools, hospitals, and towns they fly over.
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Alav
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav »

rwm1273 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:13 am With some there is no way to teach. Trust me, if you fly with the person I'm posting about, you will understand. It will be a real eye-opener that this person has gotten so far in their career.
Kinda goes back to my initial post.

Clearly this person can learn - as he's managed to progress to this point.

The challenge is for you to understand how they learn and adjust how you teach so they do learn...

So you've shown him 1000x how to start an APU... And still can't.

So - if only there was a book close at hand with the procedure for this task...

Some people need to see it written down - not everyone processes verbal communication the same, so next time you fly with said person - instruct to grab POH - open to and follow the procedure "start APU" repeat until he doesn't need the POH. If there's a slip - back to grab POH as first step.

Anytime one of my crew of trainees even 20+ years later has an issue. I'm the first phone call, I want to know about it, I want to resolve it and reinforce the training they got. I don't even work in that industry anymore...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ »

rwm1273 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:18 pm
ant_321 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:54 am With that said, if I show up to an AC flight and see him in the cockpit I’m not sure I would take my family on board.
My concern isn't just for the passengers on that flight, but the schools, hospitals, and towns they fly over.
I think the schools and hospitals would be more likely to collapse due to an incompetent contractor/construction crew than an incompetent pilot who happens to hit that particular building.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. »

The challenge is for you to understand how they learn and adjust how you teach so they do learn...
Things sure have changed since I retired.

I can not recall having flown for any company that required me to teach an F.O. how to fly.

If they did insist I teach them I would have charged them my normal fee for teaching flying, $250.00 Euro per hour.
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Last edited by C.W.E. on Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rookiepilot »

rwm1273 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:07 am
I suspect with much of this person's experience, it has been just to ensure there was a warm body in the copilot seat.
So -- not unlike drivers who plop a dummy blow up doll in the passenger seat so they can drive in the HOV lane?

Why does my cynical side suspect this isn't completely uncommon in commercial aviation -- "snort" :roll:
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Alav
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav »

C.W.E. wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:55 pm
The challenge is for you to understand how they learn and adjust how you teach so they do learn...
Things sure have changed since I retired.

I can not recall having flown for any company that required me to teach an F.O. how to fly.

If they did insist I teach them I would have charged them my normal fee for teaching flying, $250.00 Euro per hour.
"The growth and development of people is the highest calling of leadership." Henry S Firestone.

If you don't understand that command/leadership involves a need to instruct and educate those 'beneath' you...
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy »

The total irony here that, over the years I have had such input from other captains about a particular pilot. I also have flown with the F/O they are telling me and saying that the guy should never be allowed in and aircraft. I did not have an issue and the person(s) in question was able to function within set standards.

My point being is that the attitude that the captain carriers into the flight deck has a large being on how a crew operates. What the captain projects sets the mood. If a crew member feels pressure and sees aggressive body language they might just start "shutting down" which just adds to the stress and it becomes a caustic and unsafe environment.

As I have mentioned before the attitude of "good old boys", captain gods is alive and well and alive in the new generation of pilot. CRM and crew concept is just not something they understand. It's quite horrifying to see new green captains fall into this mind set. Can attitudes ever be changed when pilots fall into this group.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ »

valleyboy wrote: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:08 am The total irony here that, over the years I have had such input from other captains about a particular pilot. I also have flown with the F/O they are telling me and saying that the guy should never be allowed in and aircraft. I did not have an issue and the person(s) in question was able to function within set standards.

My point being is that the attitude that the captain carriers into the flight deck has a large being on how a crew operates. What the captain projects sets the mood. If a crew member feels pressure and sees aggressive body language they might just start "shutting down" which just adds to the stress and it becomes a caustic and unsafe environment.

As I have mentioned before the attitude of "good old boys", captain gods is alive and well and alive in the new generation of pilot. CRM and crew concept is just not something they understand. It's quite horrifying to see new green captains fall into this mind set. Can attitudes ever be changed when pilots fall into this group.
I completely agree with everything you've written, but even if you change your attitude as a captain, there will still be people that make you wonder how they even passed their PPL checkride. Some are very good in memorizing what is necessary to pass the checkrides, but shut down when some creativity or improvising is required. Others lack the ability to stay focused for longer period of times. Some just don't care.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by goingnowherefast »

I generally bring most issues to the attention of the training department or chief pilot. However, in my career I've only met one person who should consider another career.

This person actually got along well with the "good old boys club" style captains. Needed to be told when to slow down, too high/low on descent, slow on approach, tried ordering too little fuel because "then we'll have to bump stuff". This person got along great with the captains who told them exactly what to do and when, basically a voice controlled autopilot/autothrottle. God forbid someone should try to mentor this person, it never went well.
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