What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

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iflyforpie
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by iflyforpie »

There but for the grace of god go I.
Kind of like how I’ve survived 10 ‘destructions’ of our country so far and will surely survive another one this October, the number of times I’ve heard of pilots who shouldn’t fly and been told so myself are almost beyond hyperbole.

It takes a lot to screw up in an airplane. I’ve never been able to fully correlate previous incompetence with a disastrous result nor have I seen previous demonstrations of full competence deter a momentary lapse or bad luck which resulted in a crash due to pilot error.

There’s always two sides to a story, and nearly as often as I’ve seen someone bumbling and feeling their way through flying I’ve also seen overbearing captains and management expecting cookie cutter SOPs, micromanaging, and otherwise not letting situations develop that require deliberate action by the other pilot which may come at a point well after yours—but still not jeopardize safety.

Line indoc doesn’t mean training ends. It’s only begun. I taught my training captains things they never knew. The important thing is to foster an atmosphere where input is not only encouraged but expected, but all too many times the FO is just along for the ride and can’t make decisions because they were either deliberately or inadvertently excluded from them.
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BCnomad
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad »

Iflieforpie. Thanks for adding your two cents and basically saying we don’t know what were talking about. This is not one event or a few events bcz someone is having a bad day. This is over a period of years. There is a history of hiring and firing and BSing one’s way from one place to another. Read the post.

This is not an individual that had overbearing captains or hard SOPs. This is an individual that was helped many times and in the end still could not do it. Plane and simple

If you feel so inclined to help this one out - go ahead. But don’t come crying the blues later.
:-)
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iflyforpie
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by iflyforpie »

Like I said, hyperbole.

Stop looking for validation here and either do what’s required or stop whining. The very fact that it’s a question tells me that it’s not serious.
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rwm1273
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 »

iflyforpie wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:52 pm Like I said, hyperbole.

Stop looking for validation here and either do what’s required or stop whining. The very fact that it’s a question tells me that it’s not serious.
I posted the topic because this person has just been hired by a new company and I would never recommend this person ever step foot into a cockpit as flight crew.

If you had actually read the thread, you would realize that there are numerous people who have first-hand experience with this person, and all came to the same conclusion. The question is valid, what avenues do you have to put a stop to someone who truly should not fly. If it makes it easier for you to comprehend, think of it as the type of choice you have trying to get an elderly person from driving once their skills deteriorated to a point they are dangerous.

The only real difference is this person isn't elderly and has never been competent from my understanding. Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
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corethatthermal
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal »

Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
The germanwings pilot who committed suicide but decided to do it in a fully loaded aircraft did not report his suicidal tendencies to the airline BUT one would imagine that MANY in the chain would have known and could have reported it. If the pilot was reported, he still kept his job. In our advanced, liberal world, we wait till the smoking hole in the ground to enact legislation, laws, rules etc to try to prevent the next obvious accident waiting to happen !
This female pilot (if all reports are correct) is already GUILTY of being in aviation and the innocent need to suffer before anything is done. As an illegal immigrant has to commit multiple murders in order to be deported, or imprisoned ( mentally ill of course ) She will need to kill some passengers in order to be barred from piloting ANY aircraft !
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BCnomad
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad »

Corethatthermal - agreed.. More time is spent on justifying the 1% and not looking at the consequences of making sure a standard is met and if not then dealing with it.

Flie in the pie.. I have to wonder who is looking for validation here with over 7000 posts. You must know everything to be so dismissive. You were not there and frankly have no perspective on this except your tower.. Enjoy
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rwm1273
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rwm1273 »

corethatthermal wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:00 pm
Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
The germanwings pilot who committed suicide but decided to do it in a fully loaded aircraft did not report his suicidal tendencies to the airline BUT one would imagine that MANY in the chain would have known and could have reported it. If the pilot was reported, he still kept his job. In our advanced, liberal world, we wait till the smoking hole in the ground to enact legislation, laws, rules etc to try to prevent the next obvious accident waiting to happen !
This female pilot (if all reports are correct) is already GUILTY of being in aviation and the innocent need to suffer before anything is done. As an illegal immigrant has to commit multiple murders in order to be deported, or imprisoned ( mentally ill of course ) She will need to kill some passengers in order to be barred from piloting ANY aircraft !
Finally someone who gets it. Why do we need to let a major incident/accident happen before something is done? Yes of course individual companies can go and remove this person from flying duties, but then this person just goes out and finds another job and nobody is the wiser at the new company and the process continues.
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digits_
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ »

rwm1273 wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:27 pm
iflyforpie wrote: Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:52 pm Like I said, hyperbole.

Stop looking for validation here and either do what’s required or stop whining. The very fact that it’s a question tells me that it’s not serious.
I posted the topic because this person has just been hired by a new company and I would never recommend this person ever step foot into a cockpit as flight crew.

If you had actually read the thread, you would realize that there are numerous people who have first-hand experience with this person, and all came to the same conclusion. The question is valid, what avenues do you have to put a stop to someone who truly should not fly. If it makes it easier for you to comprehend, think of it as the type of choice you have trying to get an elderly person from driving once their skills deteriorated to a point they are dangerous.

The only real difference is this person isn't elderly and has never been competent from my understanding. Over 500hrs just to get their PPL and this was after being told by more than one flight school to find a new occupation.
I can see iflyforpie's point though. If you are honestly claiming this is a serious issue, then pick up the phone and call the company she works for now.
If you want to take it further, treat your findings as an SMS report to yourself: why did it happen, who was involved, what can be done to prevent it.
If a pilot with subpar flying skills passes multiple flight tests and ppc rides, then something is wrong with the system. Inquire how she could have passed her PPC ride at your company, and at the new company.
If you are still unsatisfied with the replies you get, contact TC. Talk to an enforcement officer, and see where the rabbit hole leads. Voice your concerns.

Another way to look at it, from a devil's advocate point of view, could be that the person you are talking about is a huge b**** or a**hole or whatever other colorful terms you could come up with, but that does not necessarily mean that she is also a terrible pilot. The personality issues could -subconciously- color the evaluation of her skills.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy »

So if this person continues to get jobs I guess either companies are so glad to see the back of her they give her a good reference or people in charge of hiring is not calling past employers. I never called references but always called past employers when was hiring someone. Go figure!! Seems the system is flawed on all levels. It's about filling seats and not about standards - one can only hope for days of pilot surplus again.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. »

I never called references but always called past employers when was hiring someone.
Same here, it is sometimes what the former employer does not say that tells the true story.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by B208 »

If someone has concerns as grave as those stated by the OP the best thing to do is to express those concerns, in writing, to the Training and/or management structure. Cite specific examples of performance, i.e. “On 12 Oct 2018 FO Bloggins deviated 1 and a half dots low on the Glide path during an ILS at CYYY. Bloggins did not correct the error and the Captain was forced to take control to ensure safety of flight.” Don’t write something vague like, “Bloggins flying worries me”. Keep documenting and reporting until the issue is addressed. If the training department or the first level of management won’t address is, then kick it up the ladder until someone does (write a letter to TC if you have to).

If you are management or training and this sort of issue presents itself then make the hard call and fail the individual. I know that can be a hard thing to do, but I will pass on a bit of advice that was given to me: When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by rookiepilot »

B208 wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:59 pm
I know that can be a hard thing to do, but I will pass on a bit of advice that was given to me: When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
Absolutely.

Even as a lower time PPL, I learned this through reading accident reports where nice guys died, and took others with them.

Passivity in handling an emergency, or a situation that might turn into one, is a fatal character flaw.

Unfortunately, some we interact with in aviation couldn't give a rip -- trust but verify.
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corethatthermal
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal »

what the former employer does not say that tells the true story.
So, they are not allowed to tell the truth or say anything negative about a past employee ? Part of the problem and not part of the solution. TC needs to have more teeth to remove gross incompetence. I am sure CWE would regale us with TC s level of competence !
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by C.W.E. »

So, they are not allowed to tell the truth or say anything negative about a past employee ?
Sure you are free to say whatever you want to, however there is always the danger of being sued for slander if you say something negative.

If the former employer does say positive things that is a safe way of not giving a positive reference.
TC needs to have more teeth to remove gross incompetence. I am sure CWE would regale us with TC s level of competence !
I can only comment on my own experience with T.C. and from my experience they are toothless.







c
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by Alav »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:11 pm
So, they are not allowed to tell the truth or say anything negative about a past employee ?
Sure you are free to say whatever you want to, however there is always the danger of being sued for slander if you say something negative.

If the former employer does say positive things that is a safe way of not giving a positive reference.
HR departments are super risk averse these days. They're about down to confirming dates of employment now. That's it.

Instructions I've received is that all reference calls were to be forwarded to HR, we were not to speak at all to the caller. I would be very surprised if aviation is different.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by valleyboy »

When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by digits_ »

valleyboy wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pm
When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
I would specify it futher and claim that in a multicrew environment, a super nice FO and/or an asshole captain cause most smoking holes.
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal »

I would specify it futher and claim that in a multicrew environment, a super nice FO and/or an asshole captain cause most smoking holes.
That truthful statement both exposes the "old boys club" mentality AND the dysfunctionality of SMS, TC, whistleblower protections, PC observance ( treating minorities which includes women in aviation in a preferential way) and the eroding liberal view of no laws and no punitive measures to stop failure !
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BCnomad
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by BCnomad »

B208, digits - as stated in the thread - notes, emails, letters, and calls were made to the various people - it went to the top. There was effort made by a number of people indicating that continuing was not a good idea.
The driving force behind hiring or keeping someone on is sadly purely economical. Supply and Demand. Hence the reason why this same person has been hired again. You cant find people with certain skills to fill certain positions. And sadly again this one has managed to be taken on for that job role.

Valleyboy has it right - but again It is driven by supply / demand - Especially in this current climate.

Further to the sidetrack here. We have nice and asshole captains and FOs in the industry. This thread is not about that. This is about how or what can you do if someone you believe is incapable of doing a job due to their incompetence. After you have tried using the tools available to you: SMS, HR, CEO, Management. When all that has failed and one continues to be hired - what is left that one can do to prevent this potential safety issue from becoming a statistic.
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corethatthermal
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Re: What do you do when you think someone should never fly again?

Post by corethatthermal »

what is left that one can do to prevent this potential safety issue from becoming a statistic.
MEDIA ! SHAME TC and the various culprits in public until something is done ! ONLY other way is await the smoking hole !
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