Who will bid the A220?

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goingnowherefast
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by goingnowherefast »

I'd be happy to fly in daylight the rest of my career. I wish I got paid more to work odd hours at night.

It takes quite a toll getting up at 4am, or working till 1am. Times that the body naturally wants to sleep. I'm envious of those who get additional renumeration for that.
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Chinaflyer
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by Chinaflyer »

Some airlines in China pay captains extra to sign the tech log in stations where there aren’t company engineers getting paid to do it. One of my previous companies used to pay an allowance for laundry. I know people in non aviation jobs in Toronto that get an allowance for using the 407 to get to work. Whatever you can negotiate I guess...
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sanjet
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by sanjet »

Wait until you have to do international ops/night flying on a regular basis.
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altiplano
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by altiplano »

ant_321 wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:39 am
altiplano wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:33 pm And they're everyone else?

Delta, United, American, Alaskan, Hawaiian, Jetblue... even Spirit have various international pay premiums.

Maybe your "everyone else" are missing out?
I’m certainly not against anyone making extra cash but to me it seems like a weird way to make it. Is following the magenta line to Cancun really any different than following it to Punta Cana?
IMO Mexico should be included, but as someone else mentioned, it's what you negotiate...

And sure, Punta Cana is different than Cancun, maybe you're out in WATRS, no radar, over water, patchy comms, HF bullshit... whatever, international flying presents additional challenges and risks, and there are many more variables than doing a Calgary turn... over the Atlantic, to Hawaii, to South America, Caribbean... and in a NB... I want to get paid more, don't you?
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ant_321
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by ant_321 »

altiplano wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:12 am
ant_321 wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:39 am
altiplano wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:33 pm And they're everyone else?

Delta, United, American, Alaskan, Hawaiian, Jetblue... even Spirit have various international pay premiums.

Maybe your "everyone else" are missing out?
I’m certainly not against anyone making extra cash but to me it seems like a weird way to make it. Is following the magenta line to Cancun really any different than following it to Punta Cana?
IMO Mexico should be included, but as someone else mentioned, it's what you negotiate...

And sure, Punta Cana is different than Cancun, maybe you're out in WATRS, no radar, over water, patchy comms, HF bullshit... whatever, international flying presents additional challenges and risks, and there are many more variables than doing a Calgary turn... over the Atlantic, to Hawaii, to South America, Caribbean... and in a NB... I want to get paid more, don't you?
I always want to get paid more and don’t blame you guys for trying to scrape together a few extra bucks out of the contract. I just find the concept strange. I would argue a YUL-LGA-YUL is much more challenging than a YYZ-HAV.
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rudder
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by rudder »

Or perhaps add the Nav/Night/Overseas premiums to the Day rate and make that the published hourly rate for all flying. That would represent a start towards pay rates approaching those paid in the US (exchange rate factor excluded).

Put it on the shopping list for the upcoming Transat discussions. That and the LCC/new-hire pay rates.
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altiplano
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by altiplano »

Yeah, that would be great, I'm sure the corporation will be happy to do it... remember most of those US airlines have international override and other premiums also...

With Nav and Overseas premium on a 737 or 320 doing all overseas flying it adds up quickly.

Likewise, if I'm giving up nights of sleep, I'm happy to be paid a premium to do it... some guys bid it for that reason, freeing up daytime flying for others who would be stuck with red-eyes otherwise...

Also I think the roots of the Nav pay premium go way back... 80 year old contract and all... I might have been told before, but I can't recall exactly...
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altiplano
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by altiplano »

LGA once you've done it a few times is not so much challenging as it is frustrating...
"How long from now was that slot time again? So much for making it back for dinner..."
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ogopogo
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by ogopogo »

altiplano wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:33 pm Captain nav-aid pay 11.1412
FO nav-aid pay 5.5701
RP nav-aid pay 3.3416
There are RPs on NB aircraft?
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altiplano
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by altiplano »

ogopogo wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:44 pm
altiplano wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:33 pm Captain nav-aid pay 11.1412
FO nav-aid pay 5.5701
RP nav-aid pay 3.3416
There are RPs on NB aircraft?
I suppose there could be if they wanted...

What a waste of a position IMO.
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Gino Under
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by Gino Under »

I can’t believe you guys still get nav pay!
How’d you pull the wool over management’s eyes? What a totally silly concept in the day of GPS, IRS, and FMS. Not to mention CPDLC, ADS-B out, ACARS, reliable auto-pilots and reasonably qualified RPs. Isn’t it really about sore index fingers? Putting a flight plan you didn’t create or file into the “navigation computer” must be a real challenge. I would have thought nav pay went the way of the dodo bird and FEs.
Night pay? What, so you can actually use your IFR and Night qualifications that get re-validated every 6 months in a simulator paid for by ‘the company’?
Good game for a real professional pilot. I’d say.
Some European carriers actually pay Captains on “medium” jets more than Captains on long haul “heavies”. Seems they realized years ago that takeoffs and landings were the most dangerous part of the flight and decided that the crews doing 4 and 5 sectors a day should be compensated accordingly. Why not offer that idea as a legitimate idea during your next contract negotiations?
Getting paid that extra dosh for scamming the employer over nav pay isn’t going to help deal with the deteriorating manual flying skills either.
Nav pay. Really?

..interesting...
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by David Hasselhoff »

When did you get your PFO?
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altiplano
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by altiplano »

All the guys with substandard contracts who don't get any premiums think it's ridiculous...

Go tell the Delta and United guys their pay premiums are nonsense while you're at it. Or better yet, do something about your own crappy contract!
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Hangry
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by Hangry »

Seriously. The jelly is thick.
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Gino Under
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by Gino Under »

That’s it?
Childish insults.
Not even one reasonable explanation or grownup answer how “nav pay” is justifiable in this day and age? Not surprised.
Just ‘money for nothing, kicks for free’ I guess.

Where were we? Oh yeah, A220 bid. Carry on.

Gino Under :partyman:
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by MCB »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:02 pm That’s it?
Childish insults.
Not even one reasonable explanation or grownup answer how “nav pay” is justifiable in this day and age? Not surprised.
Just ‘money for nothing, kicks for free’ I guess.

Where were we? Oh yeah, A220 bid. Carry on.

Gino Under :partyman:
Based on your monologue above, I don't get your point. Do you think every AC pilot should get a pay cut? What difference does it make? It's part of the compensation package. Would you prefer it was called something else? I wish my rate for every flight was a combination of Night+Overseas+NAV, but unfortunately I'll take what I can get.

I think these rates are much more 'justifiable' than the Swoop and Sky DEC jobs being posted.

We should be striving for more.
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altiplano
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by altiplano »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:02 pm That’s it?
Childish insults.
Not even one reasonable explanation or grownup answer how “nav pay” is justifiable in this day and age? Not surprised.
Just ‘money for nothing, kicks for free’ I guess.

Where were we? Oh yeah, A220 bid. Carry on.

Gino Under :partyman:
Only one wading in here, tossing insults, and displaying a wide margin of ignorance is you.

It's already been "explained" above - you get what you negotiate and you have no understanding of the history.

As I said, go tell the pilots at the other "grownup" airlines to give back their "unjustified" premiums and see what they tell you - until then go fix your own shitty contract.
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Gino Under
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by Gino Under »

No. I’m not advocating you take a reduction in pay. Not at all. And I didn’t say that either. I simply find it hard to believe nav pay would even be a reality in this day and age. Having re-read my remarks I appreciate how my written words have come across. To be honest I haven’t a clue what your CBA contains nor is it any of my business. Nav Pay just sounded like an incredible scam with the in-service airliners of today. i.e., A220, A330, B787, B777

Remember Astral nav on the old North Stars and Super Constellations? DC8s and 707s? Nav pay made sense back then.
Nav pay on anything after the B767 just seems to be nothing more than overly creative interpretation of legacy.
I’d suggest getting rid of it by re-naming it something like Radiation Pay and hiking the rate a bit. You know, high altitude exposure to high altitude radiation? A little more plausible IMHO. You might already have it as far as I know.
At least it would be more credible than Nav pay.
Would you not agree?

Gino Under
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by MCB »

Gino Under wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:21 pm No. I’m not advocating you take a reduction in pay. Not at all. And I didn’t say that either. I simply find it hard to believe nav pay would even be a reality in this day and age. Having re-read my remarks I appreciate how my written words have come across. To be honest I haven’t a clue what your CBA contains nor is it any of my business. Nav Pay just sounded like an incredible scam with the in-service airliners of today. i.e., A220, A330, B787, B777

Remember Astral nav on the old North Stars and Super Constellations? DC8s and 707s? Nav pay made sense back then.
Nav pay on anything after the B767 just seems to be nothing more than overly creative interpretation of legacy.
I’d suggest getting rid of it by re-naming it something like Radiation Pay and hiking the rate a bit. You know, high altitude exposure to high altitude radiation? A little more plausible IMHO. You might already have it as far as I know.
At least it would be more credible than Nav pay.
Would you not agree?

Gino Under
Radiation Pay is something I can get behind. Our CBA is not perfect and I think you'll unfortunately find many who feel like we've been on the losing end in the last few years. I think that's why some of us may be particularly sensitive to hanging on to what may seem to be the small things. I personally believe we currently have much bigger fish to fry within our contract.

I've been at AC for three years and some things in the contract leave me scratching my head. Perdiem only, no crew meals, on flights to Canada, US, and Mexico. I can fly a 13 hour turn to PVR with no food provided, but a three hour flight out of HAV provides hot breakfast and lunch based on departure times.

Makes me shrug, but there are other more pressing issues I hope our negotiating committees are working on.
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altiplano
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Re: Who will bid the A220?

Post by altiplano »

MCB wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:28 pm
Gino Under wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:21 pm No. I’m not advocating you take a reduction in pay. Not at all. And I didn’t say that either. I simply find it hard to believe nav pay would even be a reality in this day and age. Having re-read my remarks I appreciate how my written words have come across. To be honest I haven’t a clue what your CBA contains nor is it any of my business. Nav Pay just sounded like an incredible scam with the in-service airliners of today. i.e., A220, A330, B787, B777

Remember Astral nav on the old North Stars and Super Constellations? DC8s and 707s? Nav pay made sense back then.
Nav pay on anything after the B767 just seems to be nothing more than overly creative interpretation of legacy.
I’d suggest getting rid of it by re-naming it something like Radiation Pay and hiking the rate a bit. You know, high altitude exposure to high altitude radiation? A little more plausible IMHO. You might already have it as far as I know.
At least it would be more credible than Nav pay.
Would you not agree?

Gino Under
Radiation Pay is something I can get behind. Our CBA is not perfect and I think you'll unfortunately find many who feel like we've been on the losing end in the last few years. I think that's why some of us may be particularly sensitive to hanging on to what may seem to be the small things. I personally believe we currently have much bigger fish to fry within our contract.

I've been at AC for three years and some things in the contract leave me scratching my head. Perdiem only, no crew meals, on flights to Canada, US, and Mexico. I can fly a 13 hour turn to PVR with no food provided, but a three hour flight out of HAV provides hot breakfast and lunch based on departure times.

Makes me shrug, but there are other more pressing issues I hope our negotiating committees are working on.
That's a good idea, I'd go for radiation pay for anything North of 60, or above FL380.

The p/d's on Domestic/Transborder flying are an improvement. I'd rather get paid than get a meal I may/may not like/eat so I bought/brought my own anyway... Besides if I didn't bring anything and I need something I'll get a galley meal anyway... safety of flight requires pilot nourishment.
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