OTS WesJet Mainline FO

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pacman007
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by pacman007 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:46 am

Isn’t there a mandatory flow percentage per class that Westjet has to follow? If there is,and Westjet just chooses not to follow it, there should be money paid to the pilots who should have gone over to mainline. But I’m sure your new union is all over this? I don’t understand what you guys are doing over there.
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Sharklasers » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:19 am

bob99 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:38 pm
Disregard. Encore pilots just got an email saying no flow for the fall because they're too short staffed. Fall classes will be all OTS.

Thats one way to keep the Air Canada HR inbox full.......
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by MrTurbine » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:28 am

pacman007 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:46 am
Isn’t there a mandatory flow percentage per class that Westjet has to follow? If there is,and Westjet just chooses not to follow it, there should be money paid to the pilots who should have gone over to mainline. But I’m sure your new union is all over this? I don’t understand what you guys are doing over there.
From the encore pilot perspective.

- fall mainline initial courses
All going to OTS. Not just for the fall, wording used , “foreseeable future”. Pilot morale was already at an all time low, don’t get me started on what’s being discussed in the last 24 hours here. Why? Captain shortage, mostly YYZ, but yes, we need YYC skippers too. Cause of shortage, hiring too many instructors and reeeealy low time FOs that are not going to upgrade until 2021, and no incentives whatsoever for an OTS qualified individual to come here direct entry captain, who would rather go straight to mainline or swoop and start the clock as an FO. Yes, better to go to swoop these days than encore, can’t believe those words came out of my mouth.

- incentives to be at encore
As of right now, nothing, nada, 0.
In discussions, retention plan and protocol from the company to attract more people. Is anything legitimate going to come out of it, PROB 40 - nope. We have been getting screwed royally from all parties involved (company and mainline pilots, who I used to call siblings) for the last 12 months.
The real retention plan and LITERALLY the ONLY thing any of us cared about, was the one list. The latest and greatest version that’s going to a vote for the mainline pilots, is anyone who was at Encore BEFORE MAY 14 2019 keeps their seniority on the one list. Anyone who started after that day will get NO seniority. They have to wait to flow to swoop or mainline (which is currently non-existent) and then start their clock for seniority.

- Current wages and working conditions
Newest CBA brought very little improvements, and not in areas that actually matter. Best thing, duty rigs, that only start in June of 2020. We need it now because as skippers we are being worked to the bone. Extensions on duty day are more common than getting flow into Vancouver.
Are things going to improve with the latest email about conversations with the union? Small chance. Very very small.

So you work at mainline, what can you do?

Don’t vote yes for the latest one list propaganda. We should NOT screw over any encore pilot, even if they started after May 14, irrespective of experience. This is the airline seniority game. Everyone comes here for that one sole reason. If you want to screw our future pilots over, pro-date it for a future date like Jan 1, 2020. That way, anyone who is doing the interview process fully understands what they are signing up for. That way you don’t piss off our pilots on property even more.
Keep in mind, we all did the same interview process years ago, and some chose encore, some chose mainline. Our peers who stayed at up north and overseas crap holes only decided to join us now, and shouldn’t have the right to bump in seniority just because we at the little regional have a prop in front of the jet.

You don’t work at westjet/swoop/encore but you’re thinking about it.

If you are low time and can’t get an interview with swoop or westjet, apply at encore.

We have lots of you’s Anyway. This way you can flow to swoop as soon as you have 1500TT and have spent a year on property and have your AAs. But you don’t have to do another interview, and you’ll know how to do things the westjet way when you flow. It’ll help you out lots, make you a fantastic 705 pilot and our training is phenomenal. I guess we have to be given the situation we are in. You’ll thank me later.

If you have more than 1500TT and still want westjet instead of AC, then apply directly to swoop or mainline depending on what city you live in. You fly a few more days at swoop and make a little less money, but you don’t really give a s&!t if you don’t have to commute to the six 4 times a month.

If you are comparing between jazz and encore, definitely jazz, and I’m not going to expand further for obvious reasons.

If you are comparing between westjet and AC and don’t know the current facts, AC is a ton better place to be at, AS OF RIGHT NOW. Will things get better here, especially considering new ownership, I think so yes, and that’s what we are all hoping for. Or else my 4 bars would be gold and not silver. Is there room for future growth, expansion and better wages and working conditions, yes, I think so. Not in the near future. If united parked a max in the desert already as of last week, don’t use the max returning to service as a growth plan in the near future. More 78s and increasing fleet at encore could definitely do that. If you don’t have encore, you don’t have widebodys. Please keep that in mind.

What it is like for a current encore pilot.
Uncertainty, bad paycheques, frustration. If you started before May 14 2019, you will be waiting an average (maybe more) of 4 years, before your seniority comes up for flow. If you are from YYC, Then you flow, ONLY TO YYZ, and then apply for a base transfer to YVR. That takes 2-3 years if things go smooth, right now it’s more. After you get YVR, you wait another 2 for YYC, if you are lucky enough. Then you spend 2-3 years enjoying not commuting before you are eligible to hold YYZ skip. 5-7 years later if the starts align, you can hold YYC skip. Or just play the long haul FO game and take any type in YYC and max out on the pay scale and chill out. A month before your retirement party, you can hold wide body skipper. (That last line was over the top exaggerated, sorry)


My last thoughts. John swallow was right. Sadly. I’m very disappointed to say that. What I really didn’t see coming is that the one list would be betrayed by our very own pilots. I always thought it would be the company that finds a way to do us over. Not you folks. Well done.


Ps. If this latest one list thing goes through, in 5 years encore will be a completely separate entity. We will have jets, (CRJ 705s and Embraer 175s) and turn into another jazz. (We are allowed to have jets upto 76 seats on our latest CBA). We will have a C scale for jet pilots. Swoop has the B scale, and if you think we won’t be offered lower, think again. We will then supply our pilots the hope to one day interview at westjet. Maybe a couple of CBAs later come up with a 30 year plan and force westjet to have 90% flow for all encore pilots to mainline every year. Not sure where I’m making all this crap up from, just sounds oddly familiar.






IMC and head winds.
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citizenbanana
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by citizenbanana » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm

The mainline pilots aren't voting on anything as of right now.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:28 pm

citizenbanana wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm
The mainline pilots aren't voting on anything as of right now.
So this has been already voted or included in the latest mainline CBA?
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by MrTurbine » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:41 pm

citizenbanana wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:05 pm
The mainline pilots aren't voting on anything as of right now.
Then you will be soon.
A4DCBDA5-C09D-4052-A88B-0B45EA136B10.jpeg
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Page 1 - WJA council 234 resolution - one list
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citizenbanana
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by citizenbanana » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:50 pm

This is a resolution only.
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moe
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by moe » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:58 pm

I believe the resolution is now on hold until the PTA (pilot transfer agreement) is worked out..
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JoeyBarton
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by JoeyBarton » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:22 pm

[youtube][/youtub

So a wj ots new hire is virtually ahead of everybody at Encore?
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:26 pm

No. If the resolution passes, all encore pilots hired before May 14, 2019, their senirority is made whole. Maintaining seniority start date on the westjet pilot senirorty list. Pilots after May 14, start to accrue more senirorty than new hires at encore.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:46 pm

seriousflyer wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:26 pm
No. If the resolution passes, all encore pilots hired before May 14, 2019, their senirority is made whole. Maintaining seniority start date on the westjet pilot senirorty list. Pilots after May 14, start to accrue more senirorty than new hires at encore.
That won't bode well with the hundred or so pilots that were hired so far since May 14th.
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:44 am

I agree. Those pilots hired at encore after may 14, although not all would be fully 100% aware of the politics, would of atleast known the result of the vote may 14, that is the argument from the people who are trying to pass resolution.
Either way - all pilots hired at either airline are considered to be super junior. If your OTS hire at mainline your behind 2100, if your hired at encore your behind 2100 pilots. Westjet grew only from the bottom and retired very very very few from the top.

If the resolution passes, encore will form their own senirority and there will be lifers start to develop. In 15 years encore will have their own developped CBA and wages and working conditions that would be considered a good living.
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kiaszceski
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:37 am

What profits would westjet mainline pilots have to pass the resolution? I mean the majority of them.
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seriousflyer
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by seriousflyer » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:13 pm

It's hard to say. To answer your question. They would profit indirectly. Which isnt s monetary amount that can be seen or touched by anyone pilot.

What I mean by that, is that the company would be able to recruit and raise morale which has an impact on profitability and health of the airline. Which is an indirect profit to pilot salary.

However if a mainline pilot is looking for after tax dollars in their pocket on the 15th and 30th of every month, or profit for voting yes to one list, then, the pilots will have to take the one list away from may 14th (resolution), and see how much the company is willing to pay for it, I belive that is the angle.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:23 pm

The majority of morale at WestJet is not directly tied to the one list, actually morale could improve without the one list. Junior jet pilots morale improves dramatically without the one list as they are no longer under 100 to 500 Encore pilots who would have flowed over to mainline ahead of them. The Encore morale drops because they were hoping to keep their position on the one list along with all their new improvements from their CBA. Encore now has a new CBA with improved pay and working conditions. Additionally when an Encore Pilot now flows to mainline even at the bottom of the list they get their pay topped up by I believe $28,000.00 over two years to help offset their pay reduction when they come over. The one list only benefits mainline pilots if it is reworded and approved by a vote so that it allows true bumping downward in the event of reduction bidding which is a real possibility. It was voted down because it only benefited Encore pilots coming over and did nothing for mainline pilots.
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by DropTanks » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:04 pm

fish4life wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:26 pm
moe wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:53 am
I’m still anxious that the corp will find a loophole to wriggle out of YOS.
How would they find a loophole? Wasn’t it part of the contract?
We have a few items that are written clear as day that the Corp simply ignores or reads differently. Somebody at the crystal palace has decided to quite simply screw the pilots just a little more. They’re going to arbitration because of it. As a result people feel nervous about the YOS being enacted Jan 1.
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by kiaszceski » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:07 am

DropTanks wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:04 pm
fish4life wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:26 pm
moe wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:53 am
I’m still anxious that the corp will find a loophole to wriggle out of YOS.
How would they find a loophole? Wasn’t it part of the contract?
We have a few items that are written clear as day that the Corp simply ignores or reads differently. Somebody at the crystal palace has decided to quite simply screw the pilots just a little more. They’re going to arbitration because of it. As a result people feel nervous about the YOS being enacted Jan 1.
What’s the point of screwing the pilots? I mean how do they want to expand as an international carrier by losing pilots again and again?
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pacman007
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by pacman007 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:39 am

kiaszceski wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:07 am
DropTanks wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:04 pm
fish4life wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:26 pm


How would they find a loophole? Wasn’t it part of the contract?
We have a few items that are written clear as day that the Corp simply ignores or reads differently. Somebody at the crystal palace has decided to quite simply screw the pilots just a little more. They’re going to arbitration because of it. As a result people feel nervous about the YOS being enacted Jan 1.
What’s the point of screwing the pilots? I mean how do they want to expand as an international carrier by losing pilots again and again?
International expansion at WestJet doesn’t mean more pilots, I think that’s the misunderstanding on this forum. As WestJet brings on 787s more of the 737s will go to swoop, encore will expand and link will expand! So yes WestJet main line will have 20-30 wide bodies in the next 10 years but will still have the same amount of pilots due to most of the domestic capacity going to encore( maybe jets at encore?). And 30 tails at swoop. That’s my opinion anyway
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:22 am

pacman007 wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:39 am
And 30 tails at swoop.
That's only if they can stop getting themselves in the news for the stupidest of reasons.
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by jjj » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:59 pm

One thing your average Encore pilot won’t tell you is that during their interview they were asked if they understood the “One List?”

They were also made to understand that the list was nothing more than a handshake and was not enshrined in anything. It was also made clear that it could go away.

Long story short. The passage through Encore was always a gamble.

I don’t feel bad for the guys that bypassed their flow opportunity.

I really don’t feel bad for the guys that intended to bypass their flow opportunities for years thinking they could glide right into a Captain’s job one day WS.

Who’s to blame in all this? I submit it’s the company that wouldn’t include the same attributes of the One List in the CBA.

Why wouldn’t they include a bump and flush just like the “One List” had?

The answer is that it’s easy to agree to anything in a document that never has to be honoured.

Best of luck to all at Encore.

I understand the low morale for somebody that put in a little time at Encore and didn’t get the same treatment as someone hired just a few months prior.

If I run into an Encore Pilot that doesn’t even have an ATPL and is suffering from low morale - I’ll probably puke or just hand out a soother.

JJJ
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Biff
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by Biff » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:50 pm

jjj wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:59 pm
One thing your average Encore pilot won’t tell you is that during their interview they were asked if they understood the “One List?”

They were also made to understand that the list was nothing more than a handshake and was not enshrined in anything. It was also made clear that it could go away.

Long story short. The passage through Encore was always a gamble.

I don’t feel bad for the guys that bypassed their flow opportunity.

I really don’t feel bad for the guys that intended to bypass their flow opportunities for years thinking they could glide right into a Captain’s job one day WS.

Who’s to blame in all this? I submit it’s the company that wouldn’t include the same attributes of the One List in the CBA.

Why wouldn’t they include a bump and flush just like the “One List” had?

The answer is that it’s easy to agree to anything in a document that never has to be honoured.

Best of luck to all at Encore.

I understand the low morale for somebody that put in a little time at Encore and didn’t get the same treatment as someone hired just a few months prior.

If I run into an Encore Pilot that doesn’t even have an ATPL and is suffering from low morale - I’ll probably puke or just hand out a soother.

JJJ
There’s a pretty strong rumour out there that it wasn’t the company that insisted on the bump and flush being removed.

Evidently the CEO stated that to one of our crews when he was onboard.

Encore pilots should ask their MEC who was responsible for removing this. They might be surprised with the answer.
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by WestJet Puke » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:57 am

Biff wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:50 pm
There’s a pretty strong rumour out there that it wasn’t the company that insisted on the bump and flush being removed.

Evidently the CEO stated that to one of our crews when he was onboard.

Encore pilots should ask their MEC who was responsible for removing this. They might be surprised with the answer.
[/quote]


Step back from the suicidal ledge.

From a WS Pilot point-of-view......95% of us, myself included, welcome you here and wish you guys could all flow sooner. There are a few Boeing pilots who think otherwise and while I understand their arguments, all of us WJ pilots have put in the time in the industry, know what regional flying is like, have been in your shoes, appreciate your contributions to Team Teal, and want you guys to have a defined career path whereby a flow can be expected in a reasonable amount of time.

But please understand that if you are going to have the ability to flow here.....we also want the ability to flow there. And not that we are all intending to go - I don't think there is one pilot from WestJet since Encore's 2013 inception who has voluntarily gone there with the exception of your VP Flight Ops who has done so twice - but say another 9/11 happens, the company cuts 20 mainline 737s, and stops at 10 B787s (not picking up the 10 options which almost everyone believes will be exercised). Our guys want the option of flying a Q400 with Encore vs being on the street, going back up north to fly, or going overseas. We welcome you.....there are probably more than 200 Encore guys at WestJet now, how come you don't welcome us? The last LOA was a one-sided recruiting tool for the company, whereby it locked in your guys' ability to join our list and go upwards, with no safeguards for the existing Boeing pilots.

If you want to understand why the LOA was voted down in the spring, the above reason is exactly it. I am glad we have ALPA on the property and they have done some really good things for our group, but I was profoundly disappointed how they missed the pulse of the pilot group on that one. Hopefully they understand that now. Its not rocket science. No matter how you sugar coat it or what you say, the issue is not going to pass this pilot group until those terms are cleared up.
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by .80@410 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:51 pm

...
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Last edited by .80@410 on Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just callin it like it is.

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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by .80@410 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:56 pm

Even though I voted yes out of moral obligation.. this ^^^ is exactly it and very well said.

WJ can’t get a free recruiting tool without offering something in return. If bumping is gonna cost WJ money well sorry . You gotta pay to play.


Personally , going to encore now is a great stepping stone to AC. Nothing more.
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Re: OTS WesJet Mainline FO

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:32 am

As much as the one list issue is tearing at me, I can't deny that I am loving working at Encore.
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