In the public world that may get results.MEDIA ! SHAME TC
But T.C. is a different animal altogether and they have zero accountability...zero.
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In the public world that may get results.MEDIA ! SHAME TC
I will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.valleyboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pmThat seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
It may be a money issue as well. Training costs money for an employer and having to do any more than necessary is an extra expense they don't want. "Push them thru, we can't waste more time and money, they'll learn on the job" , I can see that being said. I think that a check pilot being a nice guy in the sense that he is making the trainee feel comfortable is key, everyone does better when comfortable. I did an initial checkride once and the check pilot was a complete tyrant, I've never felt so uncomfortable in a cockpit, about half way thru after he screamed at me for not holding my heading while I was steering around cloud (ATC said to remain VFR) I started to just shut down and not even care as I figured I had failed anyway. He was so wound up and impatient, I figured he shouldn't be a checkpoint with his attitude, he ended up passing me, that was the most stressful checkride I had ever done.B208 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:23 pmI will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.valleyboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pmThat seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.When it comes to command in aviation, nice guys cause funerals.
Quite the opposite.jakeandelwood wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:50 amIt may be a money issue as well. Training costs money for an employer and having to do any more than necessary is an extra expense they don't want. "Push them thru, we can't waste more time and money, they'll learn on the job" , I can see that being said. I think that a check pilot being a nice guy in the sense that he is making the trainee feel comfortable is key, everyone does better when comfortable. I did an initial checkride once and the check pilot was a complete tyrant, I've never felt so uncomfortable in a cockpit, about half way thru after he screamed at me for not holding my heading while I was steering around cloud (ATC said to remain VFR) I started to just shut down and not even care as I figured I had failed anyway. He was so wound up and impatient, I figured he shouldn't be a checkpoint with his attitude, he ended up passing me, that was the most stressful checkride I had ever done.B208 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:23 pmI will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.valleyboy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:18 pm
That seems like a good old boy statement. I'll go one further, ass holes and tyrants also create large smoking holes. It boils down to managing and using resources and assets at your disposal. This seems to be the point of the whole thread. Carrying a substandard pilot, no matter what seat he is in is simply dangerous and not acceptable. The system is there to filter these individuals out but it's obviously flawed.
You're both right, but talking about different ops. The money thing is a significant factor in 703 and 704 operations.tbaylx wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:47 amQuite the opposite.jakeandelwood wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:50 amIt may be a money issue as well. Training costs money for an employer and having to do any more than necessary is an extra expense they don't want. "Push them thru, we can't waste more time and money, they'll learn on the job" , I can see that being said. I think that a check pilot being a nice guy in the sense that he is making the trainee feel comfortable is key, everyone does better when comfortable. I did an initial checkride once and the check pilot was a complete tyrant, I've never felt so uncomfortable in a cockpit, about half way thru after he screamed at me for not holding my heading while I was steering around cloud (ATC said to remain VFR) I started to just shut down and not even care as I figured I had failed anyway. He was so wound up and impatient, I figured he shouldn't be a checkpoint with his attitude, he ended up passing me, that was the most stressful checkride I had ever done.B208 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:23 pm
I will spell this out so as to minimize the opportunities for people to misunderstand. The “Nice guys” the above statement is referring to are the check pilots, training captains and managers who let marginal pilots slide through because they feel sorry for them. The point, which some really missed, was that as an evaluator your job may involve inflicting some really horrible consequences onto someone’s career. Failure to do this unpleasant task, (and unless you are a sociopath it is unpleasant), results in an incompetent pilot causing death.
If they're steadily progressing and are responding to training then most 705 companies will spend the extra money and time helping a trainee with extra sim sessions and more line indoc.
However if it's a complete disaster no one wants to have that pilot as an ongoing liability. Because if you help push them through then you're just going to have to deal with it on the next recurrent in 6 months, or worse when their seniority lets them bid for an upgrade. Most 705 airlines and trainers would rather wash someone out early before they become an ongoing problem child for years to come.
Wow. Was that at a crappy 703?co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:38 pm After convening with several other captains, I decided to approach the CP about someone's upgrade. Not to sewer them, but just to suggest that it be put off another year. I got crapped on so hard that I'm not sure I would ever do it again. CP accused me of trying to undermine his job, and told me to mind my own business. I felt so strongly that I also talked to the ACP. Nearly got myself fired for that one.
My take away is that if they don't ask for your opinion about someone, nobody wants to hear it.
Ran into a similar situation back in mid ‘80s, a mid twenty low time copilot was hired kinda as a favour to a known higher up. Not a bad person, had a family and I always looked at it through what I was like in same situation. Unfortunately the person didn’t seem to have an aptitude and myself and other left seat drivers couldn’t get through to him after a few months of line flying. It wasn’t a poor attitude and unwillingness, just ability with basic skills. It was a strange situation the CP passed him(just barely) in his IFR/PPC check ride it was kinda like “ the way it is” and watch him in bad wx. Shortly after I moved to the regulator and I did hear a yr later the young guy acknowledged flying wasn’t his thing and didn’t enjoy that type of work. He moved on to another career out west, not sure what.KAG wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:28 am Co-joe that sucks, and thats what a CP is supposed to do - filter out those that are ready vs those that aren't. Years ago I was in a similar situation where one of my FO's/ trainees was literally the worst Ive ever flown with, had a horrible attitude and was not receptive to critique. I was young (24) and was trying to mentor him. I should have sent him back to home base but didn't. He caused major headaches for everyone at our base, chiefly me. Anyway looking back I should have sent him packing. There is no place for people like described above in control of other peoples lives.
Some people can't do some things. Im not steady enough or smart enough to be a surgeon, Fine I accept that. Why is it that everyone feels entitled that they should have a left seat on a plane? some can't and should be (penalty free) told such.
Sorry that happened to you, but you did the right thing.co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:38 pm After convening with several other captains, I decided to approach the CP about someone's upgrade. Not to sewer them, but just to suggest that it be put off another year. I got crapped on so hard that I'm not sure I would ever do it again. CP accused me of trying to undermine his job, and told me to mind my own business. I felt so strongly that I also talked to the ACP. Nearly got myself fired for that one.
My take away is that if they don't ask for your opinion about someone, nobody wants to hear it.
Yeah. Your conscience is clean. Sounds like your chief pilot is insecure and immature. If you were a real martyr you could make this all an "SMS" report. I would be very interested to see what would happen then. But that's master-level shit-disturbing and I assume you sort of need to keep your job.B208 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:58 amSorry that happened to you, but you did the right thing.co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:38 pm After convening with several other captains, I decided to approach the CP about someone's upgrade. Not to sewer them, but just to suggest that it be put off another year. I got crapped on so hard that I'm not sure I would ever do it again. CP accused me of trying to undermine his job, and told me to mind my own business. I felt so strongly that I also talked to the ACP. Nearly got myself fired for that one.
My take away is that if they don't ask for your opinion about someone, nobody wants to hear it.
I’m not saying this to be an jerk, but most of the captains you flew with were “complete asses” then the problem was probably you. I flew with a couple hundred different captains while I was an FO and there was only one I would classify as an ass.Flint wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:14 am Here's my 2 cents worth.... I have actually been in that kind of situation before. In the 90's I worked as an FO for about a 1.5 yrs on a high performance airplane. It was my first flying job, hired at low time hrs (500), knew nothing about commercial aviation, and I was older than most of my captains. I wasn't a terrible pilot, but I was mostly unsure of what my actual responsibilities were or what I was doing incorrectly. It was my first commercial flying job for pete's sake. Some of my captains were good. Most were complete asses. My favorite captain was female and most of my worst ones were female. The male ones were 'meh'. I didn't expect to be 'spoon fed' but I expected my captains to be leaders, to assist in my progress as a pilot, to correct or improve the way I did stuff. I had days where barely anything was said in the flight deck. I'd ask questions and either got one word answers or answers with a 'why are you asking me' attitude. Either they didn't like being there - a few had interviews with airlines but couldn't get in - or they didn't like me being there - an older FO with little hours. I ended up not trying to talk to my captains. Just the procedures and that's it. That makes for long frustrating days. I eventually had it out with the training captain and was more or less told it was my fault and I'll probably kill ppl. Gee, that made me feel good. I left soon after that and never went back to flying as a career. I do miss it, but those captains, that's plural not singular, made it look like you had to be a complete prick if you wanted be a captain and I didn't want that or want to deal with that. Long story short - Captains, be leaders, not bosses. If you don't know the difference read up on it. You have the chance to create the best captains ever or let them become flying idiots. Some of these lousy pilots might have been improved if their captains were actually captains instead of FOs in the left seat. And some are just lousy pilots with no hope what-so-ever.
There may come a day when you DO fly with an ass ( next to you, a service animal, Donkey that is ! )I’m not saying this to be an jerk, but most of the captains you flew with were “complete asses” then the problem was probably you. I flew with a couple hundred different captains while I was an FO and there was only one I would classify as an ass.