Sunwing hires Swoop

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flyinhigh
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Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by flyinhigh »

So now “Westjet Pilots” will be flying aircraft for their direct competitor. I.e, lets partner with Westjet Vacations direcT competitor.

What will the mangers come up with next.

I feel bad for you folks. The powers that be are clueless.

https://www.skiesmag.com/press-releases ... l-options/
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Last edited by flyinhigh on Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
flyinhigh
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by flyinhigh »

Dp
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by TSAM »

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Last edited by TSAM on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

Boy, if only people read before they posted, but admittedly anyone, informed or not, can share their views.

At any rate, this deal is great for Swoop and WestJet Group because they get to sell seats to their competitor, meaning they get money from their competitor! What can be bad about that?! Sunwing, in its wisdom, realized there was no point duplicating lift from areas where demand was thin and piggy-backed on Swoop, everyone wins, including consumers. Otherwise, they may not have had as much choice from those places.
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BBQ Chips
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by BBQ Chips »

I would venture a guess that SW is still expanding, short on airplanes due to the winter program not including the Max, and went to the lowest bidder. Too bad it’s to a B scale company.
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GoHomeLeg
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by GoHomeLeg »

BBQ Chips wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:43 pm I would venture a guess that SW is still expanding, short on airplanes due to the winter program not including the Max, and went to the lowest bidder. Too bad it’s to a B scale company.
This is expansion to test a new markets where demand is not yet gauged. Sunwing has used Mexican ULCAs in the past out of new Canadian gateways to test the market. The MAX flying is covered with securement of additional dry lease aircraft. It's just a shock to hear it is with a Canadian competitor.
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Last edited by GoHomeLeg on Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
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ant_321
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by ant_321 »

The agreement is less than 200 seats a week during the winter season. A handful of seats on flights from a few smaller airports that are not serviced or under serviced by Sunwing. Not exactly earth shattering news.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by 3down&loct »

Schwartz positioning to buy Sunwing.
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cloak
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
I would posit that these assertions are unlikely.
First off, why would WS pilots concern themselves with scope? They are getting to fly the competitor's passengers on their own airline's planes.
And Porter flying to Mexico for a few passengers from SW, on a Dash8?!!
Sharing what intel? Passenger numbers without yield is useless! Lol I know Air Canada sends people sitting at the gates counting passengers, but useless info!
And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by CXALE »

The head of Swoop flight ops is the former Sunwing Chief Pilot, probably that helped.
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altiplano
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

cloak wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm
altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
I would posit that all your assertions are wrong!
First off, why would WS pilots concern themselves with scope? They are getting to fly the competitor's passengers on their own airline's planes.
And Porter flying to Mexico for a few passengers from SW, on a Dash8?!!
Sharing what intel? Passenger numbers without yield is useless and some thing that Air Canada does! Lol sitting at the gates counting passengers, useless info!
And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure.

Tell that to Westjet marketing that just took over and started selling their own tickets themselves on flights they were doing for Transat the previous years.

We'll see how long this runs... I think I'd put a 1 year half life on it... ie. 50% chance it goes longer than 1 year, 25% chance longer than 2, 12.5% chance longer than 3... etc...
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ant_321
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by ant_321 »

altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:11 pm
cloak wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm
altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:50 pm At first glance you shake your head... why not feed your own airline (Westjet) to the same destinations?

But Westjet management will be able to scoop tons of intel on booking trends and numbers of a competitor, this deal won't last long... like when Westjet partnered with Transat and pulled the rug out on Southern flight partnership to just go do it themselves after they saw how demand was and to where, 8 or 10 years ago or whatever it was.

I would be looking at my contract though if I'm a WS pilot... how does scope apply here?

I'm surprised Sunwing is taking the bait... Flair I could see or maybe Porter to a limited extent... but sharing this type of data with a competitor like Westjet seems reckless... or maybe they're desperate.
I would posit that all your assertions are wrong!
First off, why would WS pilots concern themselves with scope? They are getting to fly the competitor's passengers on their own airline's planes.
And Porter flying to Mexico for a few passengers from SW, on a Dash8?!!
Sharing what intel? Passenger numbers without yield is useless and some thing that Air Canada does! Lol sitting at the gates counting passengers, useless info!
And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure.

Tell that to Westjet marketing that just took over and started selling their own tickets themselves on flights they were doing for Transat the previous years.

We'll see how long this runs... I think I'd put a 1 year half life on it... ie. 50% chance it goes longer than 1 year, 25% chance longer than 2, 12.5% chance longer than 3... etc...
I certainly wouldn’t doubt westjet having other motives but this deal wouldn’t give them a whole lot of info to use for planning. The deal is just Sunwing buying a few seats on certain swoop flights, not chartering the whole airplane. The total will be less than 200 seats per week during the peak season.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by George Taylor »

Me thinks the deal stinks, and Swoop can't fill their own airplanes by themselves.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by Hangry »

George Taylor wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:16 pm Me thinks the deal stinks, and Swoop can't fill their own airplanes by themselves.
Exactly.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by JBI »

delete - double post.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:00 pm And lastly, this is likely anything but short lived!
Read the yammer post with respect to the length of the deal.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by cloak »

altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:11 pm
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure....
Yes that assumption is incorrect. This is not to feed Sunwing, rather to carry their passengers for them. It's good for them because it allows them to have lift somewhere where the market is too thin. It's good for Swoop, because it boosts their already strong sales to Sun, and it's good for consumers because it gives them more options and frequency. It's a win win solution.

I wouldn't call WestJet the "dominant" player as SW has about the same market share in Sun destinations. It's about a 4 way split between these two and Rouge and Transat. With the proposed merger of the latters, the market balance will be shifting likely requiring divesture of assets of AC/TS in this market, second to the Atlantic where more significant divesture of routes and slots can be envisioned.

That is also why, with consolidation in the market, that this partnership could potentially expand to become more permanent in some form. Another such consolidation could be in the regional market with possible CPA agreements.

Speaking of corporate espionage, it was clear that both AC and WS were "spying" on each other which is why it was settled. Any data that could have been gleaned from any employee travel website, wasn't really confidential or helpful. Counting passengers, something that AC does on its competitors on a regular basis, without more details on yield, is honestly a total waste of time.
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by boeingboy »

I wouldn't call WestJet the "dominant" player as SW has about the same market share in Sun destinations. It's about a 4 way split between these two and Rouge and Transat.
I don't know that I would consider it a 4 way split...Sunwing is the clear leader in this case.

While AC and WestJet both have their "vacation" arms - it's not exactly the same as Sunwing - their closest direct competitor is/was Transat. Sunwing airlines does not sell tickets. The only reason they exist is to serve their hotels and properties. The don't fly point to point anywhere - only to places they have properties. It's kind of a unique situation they are in. With a fleet of up to 44 aircraft and up to 140 flights a day - it's exclusively "vacation" travel.

I really don't know what to make of this whole situation. Sunwing had a limited run with Viva Aerobus a few years ago - which I suspect is what this is....still, I don't think it's the smartest thing in the world to share your business with your domestic competition. It would be akin to Westjet vacations offering trips to Frankfurt.....and using seats on Air Canada. :rolleyes:
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Re: Sunwing hires Swoop

Post by altiplano »

cloak wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:00 pm
altiplano wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:11 pm
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought this was a situation where it was mostly feed to Sunwing. I see smSwoop does some Southern flying too in the deal. Were it feeding Sunwing, that's where WS ALPA should concern themselves with scope. Still, I would monitor it very closely. Westjet is the dominant player in this deal, I wouldn't want someone growing flying at my expense with some kind of end run.

Porter flying to Mexico? Of course not, as I said feed. Feeding Sunwing. They need to fill planes and hotels. That's what this about. Feeding Sunwing some small markets.

Numbers without yield is useless?

Tell that to the captain of the Westjet corporate espionage team, counting loads on AC's employee travel site to develop their entire early route structure....
Yes that assumption is incorrect. This is not to feed Sunwing, rather to carry their passengers for them. It's good for them because it allows them to have lift somewhere where the market is too thin. It's good for Swoop, because it boosts their already strong sales to Sun, and it's good for consumers because it gives them more options and frequency. It's a win win solution.

I wouldn't call WestJet the "dominant" player as SW has about the same market share in Sun destinations. It's about a 4 way split between these two and Rouge and Transat. With the proposed merger of the latters, the market balance will be shifting likely requiring divesture of assets of AC/TS in this market, second to the Atlantic where more significant divesture of routes and slots can be envisioned.

That is also why, with consolidation in the market, that this partnership could potentially expand to become more permanent in some form. Another such consolidation could be in the regional market with possible CPA agreements.

Speaking of corporate espionage, it was clear that both AC and WS were "spying" on each other which is why it was settled. Any data that could have been gleaned from any employee travel website, wasn't really confidential or helpful. Counting passengers, something that AC does on its competitors on a regular basis, without more details on yield, is honestly a total waste of time.
I disagree. It is feed, feeding their hotel and vacation packages.

WS clearly is the larger airline of the 2, they have a far larger fleet, a regional feed network.

This is the way they figured it this time, and we'll see how it goes. I think it smells of desperation to let the fox in.

Re:divesture -
We will see... AC won't keep duplication on all the sun routes and even if it did, it wouldn't hold a majority or monopoly, you won't see much dumped beyond what they already don't want. On the Atlantic it's open skies anyway, not many slot limited airports in Transat's route structure. Dozens of operators can access that flying, but don't... Westjet or Condor or Norwegian or Ryanair or Easyjet or Air Italy could go into any of Transat's routes tomorrow if they had the will...

Re:espionage -
It was a settlement for Westjet to PAY AND APOLIGIZE, and AC donated the $20 million it to charity. Data from a password protected site for employees is clearly confidential. There was no guilt on AC.

But if AC is wasting it's time as you say, I don't know if they do it, but if they are what do you care? Clearly they aren't at every gate doing it. Maybe it's one route here or there they are trying to get a feel on...
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