Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

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Jet Jockey
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by Jet Jockey »

Outlaw58 wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:18 pm
Gannet167 wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:18 pm
valleyboy wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:06 am In my opinion the snow birds are out dated and the equipement is boring and outdated as well. Either shut them down or update them. They seem to have taken on this mystical Canadian thing like Tim Hortons. How many social media generation people actually know who Tim Horton was.

A successful ejection is the only plus along with removing one more outdated airframe. Shut the down before another accident.
I'd have to respectfully disagree. While the Tutor breaks no records for performance, that's not the point. The Tutor is a Canadian designed and built, extremely successful aircraft that has a long and prestigious history in training and air demonstration. Those that have flown it unanimously agree, it's an absolute pleasure to fly with nothing else matching it's handling. In many ways the Tutor is very well suited to a show because it flies relatively slow and has a small turn radius, keeping the planes mostly in the showbox rather than 10 miles away setting up for the next pass. They couldn't fly some of their signature manoeuvres with a faster plane with different turn performance. There are things the Thunderbirds can't do that the snowbirds can that make for a great performance.

It's old, but there are many spares in Mountain View and they have relatively low hours. By comparison, the Harvard 2 that replaced the Tutors around 2000 as trainers have about 50% more hours and cycles. There's no plan to replace the Tutor, it'll probably keep flying for another 10 years or more if possible. When they're finally done, I would seriously doubt they'll be replaced. It's hard enough to get a SAR aircraft bought inside of 20 years. No government will sign a $ contract for more demo planes. Enjoy the Snowbirds while you still can.

431 Sqn has a long history and is a prized and time honoured part of Canadiana that's an immense source of pride for many Canadians. The Sqn puts on a display of near perfect teamwork and seamless coordination, exhibits the highest level of professionalism, is an invaluable inspiration for youth (including notably, young women aviators) and is a demonstration of some of the most dedicated and focussed aviators in the Air Force and the country portraying extreme levels of skill, knowledge and talent. Very few Air Force pilots even make the tryouts, fewer are accepted on the team and fewer still complete the training.

Ask a Blue Angel or Thunderbird pilot about 431 Sqn's show, they'll tell you its a damn thing of beauty, graceful, incredibly difficult, skilled, and very well flown. There's a respect for the flying amongst fellow air display pilots because it's really, very good - and without any stability augmented flight controls or massive excess thrust. It's pure stick and rudder, "old time hockey" of flying. It's a graceful ballet that always makes me proud. As a spectator I find the Snowbirds show more entertaining and moving than the angels or the tbirds. Having done a little formation myself, I'm even more in awe, appreciating how hard what they do is.

There's a lot of division in Canada, a lot of differences being argued about. 431 Sqn is A Canadian institution that we can all celebrate and find some unifying pride and identity in. Their equipment might be old, but few planes can do what it does. Neither the Snowbirds, their equipment, nor what they represent in the Canadian Forces is boring.
Dude, I have forwarded your post to the team.

They have an opening for PA officer coming up, wait for the call ;)

Seriously! Well said :)

58
Ditto!
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by Old fella »

Over the many years I have always enjoyed the Snowbird performances when I got the opportunity to watch them. Kinda hope they continue but there probably will come a time.....
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iflyforpie
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by iflyforpie »

AuxBatOn wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:25 pm The pilot ejected and the aircraft hit the ground.
Hopefully it wasn’t by accident or on a whim.
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by AirFrame »

Gannet167 wrote: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:18 pmThose that have flown it unanimously agree, it's an absolute pleasure to fly with nothing else matching it's handling.
FWIW, i've been told by a former Tutor instructor that the closest thing he's flown to a Tutor for control harmony and formation performance is the RV series of Amateur-Builts.

And everything you said in that post I agree with 100%. Yes, the Snowbirds could fly another airplane, but it wouldn't be the same if it didn't have a similar performance envelope. I'm actually curious what they could do with a formation of 9 Harvard II's, but I know others don't want to see a propellor-based team... I don't really know why.
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Schooner69A
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by Schooner69A »

"...closest thing he's flown to a Tutor for control harmony and formation performance is the RV series of Amateur-Builts."

Having flown both, I concur...

(;>0)
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by AuxBatOn »

Worst Dutch Roll ever, side by side cockpit. I can think of many better form platforms out there...
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by FlyGy »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:41 am Worst Dutch Roll ever, side by side cockpit. I can think of many better form platforms out there...
How many hours do you have in the Tutor?
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by AuxBatOn »

FlyGy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:41 am Worst Dutch Roll ever, side by side cockpit. I can think of many better form platforms out there...
How many hours do you have in the Tutor?
450 hrs and still flying it.
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by FlyGy »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:49 pm
FlyGy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:41 am Worst Dutch Roll ever, side by side cockpit. I can think of many better form platforms out there...
How many hours do you have in the Tutor?
450 hrs and still flying it.
Way to screw up my comeback about leaving the critiques to the people who actually fly the things...(walks away grumbling)

What would you consider a better platform then?

Genuine interest BTW, I know less than nothing.
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Outlaw58
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by Outlaw58 »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:49 pm
FlyGy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:41 am Worst Dutch Roll ever, side by side cockpit. I can think of many better form platforms out there...
How many hours do you have in the Tutor?
450 hrs and still flying it.
450 hours, still flying the tutor, speaks French....

Dude, gonna be hard to remain anonymous ;)

58
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by AuxBatOn »

Outlaw58 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:35 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:49 pm
FlyGy wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 pm

How many hours do you have in the Tutor?
450 hrs and still flying it.
450 hours, still flying the tutor, speaks French....

Dude, gonna be hard to remain anonymous ;)

58
Many CF pilots speak French, either as a first or second language ;)
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by Outlaw58 »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:06 pm
Outlaw58 wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:35 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:49 pm

450 hrs and still flying it.
450 hours, still flying the tutor, speaks French....

Dude, gonna be hard to remain anonymous ;)

58
Many CF pilots speak French, either as a first or second language ;)
You know what I meant :)

58
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by iflyforpie »

I wouldn’t have thought that a straight-winged t-tailed jet flown primarily below 5000 feet ASL would have Dutch Roll issues.

But honestly one of the reasons why I love the Snowbirds so much is what they can do with that jet that is lacking in comparison to other platforms. The energy management and formation work is so superb given what they have to work with.
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by AuxBatOn »

iflyforpie wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:29 am I wouldn’t have thought that a straight-winged t-tailed jet flown primarily below 5000 feet ASL would have Dutch Roll issues.

But honestly one of the reasons why I love the Snowbirds so much is what they can do with that jet that is lacking in comparison to other platforms. The energy management and formation work is so superb given what they have to work with.
Dutch roll is a dynamic lateral-directional mode. It can happen at any airspeed, any altitude. It is worse at high altitude, as the damping ratio is lower however the Tutor suffers fairly severe dutch roll in any configuration at any airspeed and altitude. It is fairy “snaky” (more yaw than roll) and has a natural frequency of approx. 1HZ. It is lightly damped (ie: it’ll go forever) and is easily excitable (any lateral or directional control input or any gust will excite it) It is really annoying...
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by Schooner69A »

I did a trip or two in the original Citation: it exhibited the same characteristic as the Tutor. Sitting at altitude watching the yaw needle go back and forth, back and forth...
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Re: Snowbird 5 Ejected in Atlanta

Post by Capt. Underpants »

Schooner69A wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:46 pm I did a trip or two in the original Citation: it exhibited the same characteristic as the Tutor. Sitting at altitude watching the yaw needle go back and forth, back and forth...
Same here, the serial number of the C500 I flew was in the 20’s. After about 500 hours I learned how to counteract it for the most part, but sometimes it had a mind of its own!
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