Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

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rookiepilot
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Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by rookiepilot »

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C.W.E.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by C.W.E. »

This is really a sad episode for a company that has built so many good products and has to be hurting shareholders.
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tailgunner
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by tailgunner »

There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by goingnowherefast »

Boeing used to have a great reputation of building fantastic aircraft designed for pilots. They were known as a "pilot's airplane". Now their reputation is that they build the cheapest thing they can get certified to appease share holders, quality and safety be damned.
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Dry Guy
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by Dry Guy »

Don't forget the media is wrong about just about every aviation story (and probably everything else too). One reporter misunderstands something then all the other journalists reprint it and cite the first one as their source.
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W5
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by W5 »

Fairly long read (10 min.), it includes the exchange:

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... velopment/
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boeingboy
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by boeingboy »

There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by Capt. Underpants »

boeingboy wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
I’d prefer to wait until the investigations are finalized before making such conclusions.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by C.W.E. »

It looks like it is getting more embarrassing for Boeing as more info comes out.
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mixturerich
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by mixturerich »

Mapleflt wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:27 pm Boeing is just the one that got caught :roll: :wink:
Exactly, look at most politicians, or all those actors and the #metoo movement. You really think Airbus or Bombardier have their hands clean? Keep dreamin’.
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tbaylx
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by tbaylx »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:15 pm
boeingboy wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
I’d prefer to wait until the investigations are finalized before making such conclusions.
All the relevant parts of the investigations have been concluded and released. Nothing else is coming that will significantly change the narrative.
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BTD
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by BTD »

Dry Guy wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:38 pm Don't forget the media is wrong about just about every aviation story (and probably everything else too). One reporter misunderstands something then all the other journalists reprint it and cite the first one as their source.
The raw texts and emails have been released. We can form our own judgement without journalists’ narrative. Conclusion = very bad.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by goingnowherefast »

boeingboy wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
Hard to call it a "serviceable airplane" with erroneous MCAS activation. The situation might have been salvageable had the crew been adequately trained on the malfunction.

The only thing this changes is to show how deep the systemic failure is.
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by iflyforpie »

boeingboy wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:39 pm
There were some posters who wanted to blame the pilots, wondering what they think now?
They still splashed a serviceable airplane from a salvageable situation.

Rationally tell me please, without jumping on the bandwagon or joining the herd mentality - how does this change anything?
It was not a serviceable airplane.

It had a system that was driving a primary flight control to an unsafe situation as the result of a failure of a single component.

They (Ethiopian) did exactly what Boeing told them to do and were left with an airplane dangerously out of trim and were unable to manually trim it.

Tell me, rationally, what would you have done differently at that point in time? Roll it inverted like Maverick and Denzel?

No. It’s only because pilots in North America have the autopilot on from takeoff to touchdown in most cases that this problem didn’t rear its ugly head here.

The FAA knows it. Boeing knows it. The worldwide aviation regulating bodies know it. The customers know it. It’s not the first time, either.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by boeingboy »

It was not a serviceable airplane.
OK - my bad. When I said serviceable, I meant the aircraft was capable of flying perfectly fine. It was serviceable until a bird took out the AOA probe.

It had a system that was driving a primary flight control to an unsafe situation as the result of a failure of a single component.
Yes - this is true. It still does not make #1 untrue.


They (Ethiopian) did exactly what Boeing told them to do and were left with an airplane dangerously out of trim and were unable to manually trim it.
No - They did not do exactly as Boeing had instructed - which was a big part of the problem.

Tell me, rationally, what would you have done differently at that point in time? Roll it inverted like Maverick and Denzel?
Really - This is a rational question??
No. It’s only because pilots in North America have the autopilot on from takeoff to touchdown in most cases that this problem didn’t rear its ugly head here.
Rubbish. No matter who flies it (Not just North America) First - they all fly it the same.... and second - The system will not engage (or if it is already engaged - will disengage) if this problem arose. Everybody would be in the same boat.
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GRK2
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by GRK2 »

Then there's that "small" issue of leaving the thrust levers at MCT (or worse...) for much if not all of the flight until that speed was waaaay beyond any normal realm. Pretty huge oversight. Even with all the conflicting warnings, someone still has to aviate. (This is an understatement...) Serviceable aircraft? Nope. Well handled by the crew? Same answer.
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digits_
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by digits_ »

GRK2 wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:39 am Then there's that "small" issue of leaving the thrust levers at MCT (or worse...) for much if not all of the flight until that speed was waaaay beyond any normal realm. Pretty huge oversight. Even with all the conflicting warnings, someone still has to aviate. (This is an understatement...) Serviceable aircraft? Nope. Well handled by the crew? Same answer.
How would you suggest one should attempt to climb with a (perceived) non responsive elevator?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by GRK2 »

By your response I am quite sure you either have no related experience, (that's ok, it's not a bad thing) or you didn't read the report(s) in which there was a lot of criticism leveled at the crew for their serious mismanagement of the basics of aircraft handling. Go find it and read the part about auto throttle and speed management.
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digits_
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by digits_ »

GRK2 wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:44 pm By your response I am quite sure you either have no related experience, (that's ok, it's not a bad thing) or you didn't read the report(s) in which there was a lot of criticism leveled at the crew for their serious mismanagement of the basics of aircraft handling. Go find it and read the part about auto throttle and speed management.
It would be nice if arguments get attacked instead of the person making the argument.

My point is that you can only get an airplane with a stuck nose down trim/elevator to climb by increasing speed. It would be better to overspeed and fly, than to crash with the speed within limits.

You can maybe make an argument about the trim cut out switches, but faulting them for not reducing power when they are in an uncontrolled descend is silly.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Boeing allegedly Misled FAA on MAX certification.

Post by photofly »

I would like to read the reports that criticize the power lever handling; where would I find them?
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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