One List

[cloak]

This is not a highly technical engineering issue! One has to wonder about the benefit of something when it's turned into something complicated and convoluted that only serves to keep lawyers employed. It's simple, one gets hired at a company, one accrues years of service and seniority. Last in, first out kind of thing. Working at a different company, one does the same at that company. Simple! And yes a corporation may own various companies.

[JBI]

This is not a highly technical engineering issue! One has to wonder about the benefit of something when it's turned into something complicated and convoluted that only serves to keep lawyers employed. It's simple, one gets hired at a company, one accrues years of service and seniority. Last in, first out kind of thing. Working at a different company, one does the same at that company. Simple! And yes a corporation may own various companies.

Lawyers everywhere are shedding a tear this morning.

They've woken up to the news that on a Canadian aviation message board their existence has again been questioned. While sure, lawyers get made fun of, insulted and even cursed at, this last post, by poster who has already demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of employment and labour laws, the previous WJPA contracts and one-list, current mainline and Encore CAs and the wording of the failed LOA, is the last straw!

A few lawyers, however, are applauding this anonymous internet poster. Finally, he's figured it out! This issue means nothing to the pilots. Those hundreds of pages of contractual clauses are overkill and serve no purpose in protecting pilots or upholding various parties' legal obligations! I mean it's not like the poster has read them anyways...

If you need me I'm going to be consoling my colleagues from law school trying to help them find another profession that the general public doesn't understand and thinks is actually really simple. Maybe I'll suggest they try piloting...

[cloak]

Clearly this is a very sensitive topic that brings out strong feelings for some. That is understandable, albeit highlight also that usually such strong emotions manifest themselves when there is lack of reason. It also shows lack of solid grounds for such action to begin with, assuming that perhaps WestJet pilots felt badly about poor conditions at Encore and endeavored to compensate in some way. With the benefit of hindsight, it becomes evident that sense of justice and responsibility was misplaced as it brought continued unreasonable expectations.

At any rate, there has been enough discussions on the subject to help those involved make an informed decision for the right reasons and without being pressured into guilt. Current environment of mergers and acquisitions further accentuate the importance of the issue. It also highlights the duty of fair representation that rests with the executive members of the union and their counsels to do as they are entrusted by the membership. As someone mentioned above, it was fundamentally unreasonable for the candidates running for office in the union, to make campaign promises they could not possibly deliver, even worse to the members of another bargaining unit! Continued advocacy for members of another bargaining unit at the expense of and injury to the current members is likely to garner strong objections and possibly legal suits. Good luck to all!

[Stratopaused]

As others have pointed out, taking away the GIANT CARROT to get folks in the door of Encore is not a problem for a pilot at Mainline; this is an Encore management problem. I think the fear that most have but won't say, is that they believe management will do nothing meaningful. Pilots (in my mind) are simple to figure out: money, schedule, progression. In fact I would say this is true of any professional, that's why they can't get doctors to go to Nova Scotia.

Making Encore attractive is not the job of the WJ Pilot's Union, but I do believe there is a responsibility to honour the agreement (understanding, etc) that was in place until it was terminated by an accepted process. This puts the onus on management to make Encore attractive through either: money, schedule, progression or a little of everything.

I think this is a terribly myopic viewpoint. Seeing this as an Encore problem that exists in its own little bubble misses the entire reason that Encore exists: to feed passengers onto mainline aircraft. Encore was set up before any widebodies were bought specifically to ensure that enough connecting passengers would be available to fill those seats. Encore has more than 1/4 of WestJet's total fleet, and carries about 25000 guests each day; as I've said before, if even half of those passengers connect onto other WestJet flights, and I dare say that's a low estimate, that's 12500 connections each day, or the equivalent of almost 80 full 737s, using an average number of seats across the fleet. To reiterate, Encore provides enough connecting passengers to fill almost 80 737 flights each day. Without Encore, the 787s will not be profitable; for example, there isn't nearly enough O&D demand between Calgary and Dublin to maintain those flights without guests joining from Edmonton, Fort St John, and Regina. Encore is vital not only to the continued growth of WestJet, but just to maintain current operations. That should be the concern of every WestJet pilot.
The reason I'm stating this is that Encore is bleeding to death. That's not hyperbole. There have been weeks at a time when we have had no res coverage, and pairings that couldn't be crewed from the moment the schedule was released, so the flights were cancelled outright. Go on Westnet and check out how many irops are caused by a lack of crew, or better yet go back to the summer and see how many cancellations there were during the peak. Pax were being put on buses on a daily basis; those people will almost certainly never book with WestJet again, because they won't know if they'll actually get on an airplane or whether they'll make their connections. Take a moment and think about the optics of airline passengers being put on buses, and having to be reaccommodated, every single day. Encore is likely going to have to decrease frequencies, or maybe even drop routes, next year if the staffing situation isn't sorted out. How do you commuters feel about that? I would estimate that Encore won't be able to support operations to all its destinations out of YYZ in a year, and YYC in two, if the bleeding isn't stopped.
Since the One List was voted down, applicants have dried up and current pilots are leaving at a rate of about twenty a month, and the cessation of flow for the foreseeable future has exacerbated the problem. It was bad enough that applicants prior to the vote weren't experienced enough for a quick upgrade, but now even inexperienced pilots aren't applying. They're going to Jazz, or holding out for mainline, which is now taking 703/704 pilots who wouldn't meet the matrix for an upgrade at Encore. There's no reason for anyone to come here, and people are leaving in droves because it's become a dead end. Guys are going back to flying medevacs, corporate, or just quitting flying altogether rather than work here anymore. Morale has tanked, because we're working more and paid less than our competitors, which we thought would be short-term pain for long-term gain; instead we feel like everyone else in the company is making money off our backs. We do more for less, and then we're asked to taxi single-engine, to not run the APU until the cabin temps become uncomfortable, and to slow down in flight to reduce fuel burns, which then results in shorter, more-stressful turns, all so that mainline pilots can get nice profit-share cheques and cash out their ESPPs. The sentiment on the line is that there's no reason to work at Encore anymore, and I don't see how an airline can survive that kind of mentality when it's already struggling with staffing without a lot of major changes.
Management certainly bears a lot of blame for stopping flow and promising a retention plan that never materialized, but it's going to take the cooperation of mainline pilots to rectify the situation. Half-measures won't cut it. Encore will have to have an unrivalled WAWCON, which will probably have to include a common seniority list, just to maintain current staffing levels, let alone increase them to accommodate trip-and-duty-rigs, higher res rates, and the updated duty regs. If Encore fails, WestJet growth will stop dead. Without regional feed, I very much doubt even all ten of the firm 787 orders will be delivered. Management is apparently looking very hard at a Calgary-Tokyo route, but when you consider how AC makes it work, it's not from O&D pax; there's not nearly enough of a link between the two cities to justify it. The reason it works is that they put 78 of the passengers on a flight to YZF, and another 78 on a connection through YEG to YZF, which is a huge tourist destination from Japan. Without all of the connections Encore provides, there won't be any way to make a YYC-TYO route work, let alone any other expansion.
I'm sure the company could replace a lot of Qs with 737s, but not with the same frequency of flights. There are tons of oilfield workers who are paying their own way to YMM, and they book their flights as close to their shift changes as possible to maximize their time at home. If WestJet reduces from five daily flights out of YYC, and four out of YEG, to a couple of jets, those guys will book with AC instead. The business and government travellers who fly between YYC and YEG won't sit around for a couple of extra hours, they'll fly with AC (worse yet, imagine those high-yield frequent fliers being put on a three-hour bus ride instead of a 35-minute flight because of a lack of Encore crews). WestJet would have to abandon YYF, YKA, YCD, YXJ, YXT, YQU, YBR, YQT, YXU, YVR-YXS, YVR-YLW, YVR-YYJ, YVR-YQQ, YEG-YLW, YLW-YYJ, YEG-YXE, YEG-YQR, YXE-YWG, YQR-YWG, and all of the destinations out east with which I'm less familiar; YMM and YZF service might continue on the jet, but probably only twice a day for the former and once for the latter, assuming there were enough aircraft to allocate to even that much service, and YXE, YQR, and YLW frequency would drop by half. Not only that, but WestJet wouldn't be able to provide half of the Suncor charters. Jazz would step into that void without missing a beat. Do you really think WestJet would survive that kind of a reduction without severe pain? Without Encore, the company will at best stay at its current size, but I fear it would shrink back to its pre-2013 size, abandon any overseas service, and focus on low-yield North American flights again. The few 787s that would be kept would be used for Hawaii and some busy routes down south. I know the OTS pilots aren't likely to vote in favour of any future common seniority list proposals, but I think that's immensely short-sighted; you'll keep a few Encore pilots from bumping into the list above you, but upgrades could go from eight years to fifteen as things stop dead.
After all the talk of pilot unity, Encore pilots feel abandoned and isolated. We don't feel like anyone is on our side, and we don't feel like we have a future with WestJet. First and foremost, before any talk of a common seniority list, all we want from the mainline pilots is an acknowledgement of our importance to the company, and some recognition that we don't just pick up the revenue scraps from a few outlying communities. If you concede that WestJet won't grow without Encore, then I implore you to consider the ramifications of Encore shutting down. That's not a hypothetical, that's the trajectory that we're on now. If the bleeding is going to be stopped, and your futures as well as mine are to be secured, then it's going to take cooperation from both pilot groups and management to find a solution that will actually get pilots to want to work here. It's not just an Encore management problem, it's something that's going to affect all of us in a major way starting next summer when it gets busy again, if not this Christmas.

[kiaszceski]

So what do you propose?
There’s going to be 2 class a month for Encore beginning January, I think they are hiring as much as they can.

Maybe the best way to address this would be to close Encore and merge the pilots to mainline, with a common FO pay and a 20% raise for Q captain.
What would be the cons of this?

Westjet needs to give itself the means to fulfil its ambition.

[George Taylor]

Dude you’re delusional (Strat), and over estimate your value.
It’s a job, and if you feel you can do better elsewhere follow the exodus. Before the apocalypse which you predict would happen, WJ management will either sell off Encore or increase the utilization of a CPA. How many years was WestJet successful before Encore? Try not to let your emotions get the better of you, its Aviation. By the way, mainline puts way more into the pot then Encore, so we all contribute. You’re welcome.

[plausiblyannonymous]

After all the talk of pilot unity, Encore pilots feel abandoned and isolated. We don't feel like anyone is on our side, and we don't feel like we have a future with WestJet.

Spot. Fucking. On.

I've been at Encore a few months and, even with my forced optimistic views, I am having trouble holding onto my ambitions of a long-term career with WestJet.

I went from loving how great the company is (or at least, what I was fed during Kool-Aid day) to realizing that I have just as much future at WestJet as I do at Air Canada. In five or so years when I should be upgrading from Encore to mainline, my thoughts should be about my excitement of moving on with a stable career. Right now, it looks like it's as likely that I'll go to AC mainline as it is that I'll go to WestJet mainline.

I want to want WestJet. I want to be excited to work for this company.

It is quite surprising how often I am left feeling like a child who has no place in this company. Captains at mainline seem to have this resentment toward those who didn't spend five years in the bush. The 37 is a larger aircraft, yes, but we are all flying paying passengers who expect a level of professionalism, service, and safety.

I have no solution to offer. I have an idea of what I would like to see, but really, I don't care about the one list as much as I care about being treated like a member of the same team. I am a member of the same team.

[PA-18]

Wow, sounds as if the westjet world is going to end. This sounds like a management problem. Key word is “manage”. This isn’t a pilot problem. Although there are less pilots supplying the market for the demand right now, This is just a redistribution game of pilots that will be over one day. The end of the shared seniority list is just a push for those looking for greener pastures which may or may not stay green. The job didn’t change did it? Just a future seniority number at a company that’s not seniority driven in regards to lifestyle.
What did westjet and encore pilots think was going to happen when both pilot groups certified into different groups? And of all unions they chose the most seniority driven union with common industry standards. Although encore is a feeder, It did take some routes away from mainline in the race to the bottom while pilots were lining up in the race for a seniority number.

[Yycjetdriver]

What are you so mad about? As far as I can see and have heard it’s been status quo for Encore flow overs. Even since the one list being voted down it’s as if the union doesn’t care about those results and are honouring it. All the employee numbers on the seniority list reflect this. Yeah I get you’re mad with the OTS only courses of late but with the union not honouring the vote results you’ll likely flow ahead of them and still make your top up pay. The mainline union has literally favoured you guys over their own members, no need to be freaking out.

[goingnowherefast]

Sounds like a supply and demand problem. Encore is demanding more pilots than the supply is providing at the current price. You said it yourself, Encore pilots are paid below market value (industry average). How does a free market fix that? Increase the price!

Give Encore pilots a 30% raise, and the captain payscale tops out at 200 grand after 10 years. 16 days a month maximum. Wasn't there a port system long ago, where you could live anywhere you wanted on the network?

There, solved the recruitment and attrition problems. Encore is now a career worthy company.

Obviously the managers would rather pay for busses, cancelled flights, cranky passengers and missed connections than pay Encore pilots more. I'm sure they've done the cost/benefit analysis. It's just a cold business decision. Management and the executives have, so far, decided you aren't worth more money to them.

My point being, turn down a overtime, call in fatigued when you should, and NEVER "do the company a favor". Eventually the cancellations will get so expensive that the cost/benefit of pay raises tips the other way and management offers something to sweeten the pot for the pilots. Think of all the flight cancellations as a bargaining chip for the MEC.

[Rowdy]

Sounds like a supply and demand problem. Encore is demanding more pilots than the supply is providing at the current price. You said it yourself, Encore pilots are paid below market value (industry average). How does a free market fix that? Increase the price!

Give Encore pilots a 30% raise, and the captain payscale tops out at 200 grand after 10 years. 16 days a month maximum. Wasn't there a port system long ago, where you could live anywhere you wanted on the network?

There, solved the recruitment and attrition problems. Encore is now a career worthy company.

Obviously the managers would rather pay for busses, cancelled flights, cranky passengers and missed connections than pay Encore pilots more. I'm sure they've done the cost/benefit analysis. It's just a cold business decision. Management and the executives have, so far, decided you aren't worth more money to them.

My point being, turn down a overtime, call in fatigued when you should, and NEVER "do the company a favor". Eventually the cancellations will get so expensive that the cost/benefit of pay raises tips the other way and management offers something to sweeten the pot for the pilots. Think of all the flight cancellations as a bargaining chip for the MEC.

^Bingo...

[lostaviator]

I think the one list is done, unless WestJet decides to merge the companies; which will be more challenging without knowing what Onex wants.

There are WJ pilots who voted in favour of the one list who have changed their position since the first vote given the attitude of encore pilots. Jumpseats, looking the other way after a friendly hello is passed. Remember, it was a minority of pilots who voted against it. A large group didn’t vote at all. WJ pilots had legitimate concerns about language in the moa and the MEC dropped the ball putting it to a vote as written. Did encore pilots expect wj pilots to vote for “one list” that was worse than before just to make you feel part of the team? Wj pilots aren’t the enemy. The 5 groups in the negotiating rooms are: Swoop, Encore and WJ and WJE and WJ ALPA.

The cold hard truth is that WJ doesn’t care about our feelings, if we get along, or if you have a rewarding career. There is a bean counter in some office somewhere who knows exactly how many guests we can piss off before it costs them money. And we obviously aren’t at that point yet. We still have guys getting aroused delaying APU start... saving the company money... while we don’t get paid for shift trades.

We are all just a number in the corporate machine, and there’s always another warm body to fill the right seat.

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.

[tbayav8er]

My jumpseat on the Q is ALWAYS open to WJ pilots, and always will be. I've taken countless WJ pilots home in my jumpseat (just as they have for me), and I haven't heard of a single other Encore Captain denying their jumpseat to other pilots either. If it is happening, it's less than a handful of pilots, and unfortunately, in any group of 550 pilots, you're going to have a couple of jerks. Don't let the actions of ~3 pilots effect the image of the remaining 547 of us. I would say the vast majority of us are trying to be as professional as possible through this whole thing.

I think the one list is done, unless WestJet decides to merge the companies; which will be more challenging without knowing what Onex wants.

There are WJ pilots who voted in favour of the one list who have changed their position since the first vote given the attitude of encore pilots. Jumpseats, looking the other way after a friendly hello is passed. Remember, it was a minority of pilots who voted against it. A large group didn’t vote at all. WJ pilots had legitimate concerns about language in the moa and the MEC dropped the ball putting it to a vote as written. Did encore pilots expect wj pilots to vote for “one list” that was worse than before just to make you feel part of the team? Wj pilots aren’t the enemy. The 5 groups in the negotiating rooms are: Swoop, Encore and WJ and WJE and WJ ALPA.

The cold hard truth is that WJ doesn’t care about our feelings, if we get along, or if you have a rewarding career. There is a bean counter in some office somewhere who knows exactly how many guests we can piss off before it costs them money. And we obviously aren’t at that point yet. We still have guys getting aroused delaying APU start... saving the company money... while we don’t get paid for shift trades.

We are all just a number in the corporate machine, and there’s always another warm body to fill the right seat.

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.

[Stratopaused]

Dude you’re delusional (Strat), and over estimate your value.
It’s a job, and if you feel you can do better elsewhere follow the exodus. Before the apocalypse which you predict would happen, WJ management will either sell off Encore or increase the utilization of a CPA. How many years was WestJet successful before Encore? Try not to let your emotions get the better of you, its Aviation. By the way, mainline puts way more into the pot then Encore, so we all contribute. You’re welcome.

WestJet is a much different company than it was before Encore. It was successful as a low-cost North American airline, but it didn't have any widebodies, trans-Atlantic routes, or aspirations for trans-Pacific routes. If you think WestJet can maintain its current growth without regional feed, by all means hang in there and see how it plays out. Try to explain to me how there's enough O&D demand to sustain a 787 between YYC and FCO three times a week without connecting passengers from the rest of western Canada. I think you're seriously underestimating the importance of regional feed to WestJet's growth plans; if you have a chance, talk to someone in senior management or load control who's not a pilot about the importance of Encore to 737 and 787 growth, because I think you'll be pretty shocked at the ramifications of Encore not being able to operate anymore. Management can't increase the utilization of a CPA, because Pasco already can't find enough pilots to operate their share of it; Encore is picking up the slack from them. There aren't anymore pilots out there to replace us, and that's the big issue here: you think we're replaceable, and if we're not willing to do it for a depressed rate so that you can get a cushy profit share and ESPP boost from our contributions to the company's profitability, then someone else can do it. There's no one else who will do it.
I, and pretty much everyone at Encore, have one foot out the door. We already are taking advantage of the market to find better opportunities, and that's going to continue, to the detriment of WestJet. I'm not trying to manipulate you into voting a specific way, because I don't think I'll even be here for a future vote, I'm just trying to warn you of the implications of your continued condescension towards Encore pilots and your attitude that we're subservient to you. In my opinion, you're going to be hurt much worse than we will by Encore imploding, because we will have all abandoned ship by then. Your derision towards us and the idea that all we do is pick up the scraps that aren't good enough for mainline are going to bite you if nothing is done to change the current trajectory. We will bail to AC, AT, or SW at the drop of a hat. Last spring, that would have been inconceivable, because we would have been abandoning years of seniority, but now there's nothing holding us back. The floodgates have opened, and the reservoir is draining. I'm even at a point where I might just quit outright; half of my paycheque goes towards childcare, which I only need because I'm working, so I might as well be a stay-at-home parent and get to spend time with my kids. I took this job because of the long-term career prospects, the potential for higher income and fewer days of work down the road, but now all I'm getting out of it is a smaller paycheque than I would get at Jazz and half of your ESPP rate. I can't even take advantage of the travel benefits, because I can't afford hotels and meals.

What are you so mad about? As far as I can see and have heard it’s been status quo for Encore flow overs. Even since the one list being voted down it’s as if the union doesn’t care about those results and are honouring it. All the employee numbers on the seniority list reflect this. Yeah I get you’re mad with the OTS only courses of late but with the union not honouring the vote results you’ll likely flow ahead of them and still make your top up pay. The mainline union has literally favoured you guys over their own members, no need to be freaking out.

It was status quo for two classes, and OTS-only for the last two or three. As of right now, flow is on hold indefinitely because of a shortage of captains, which is a problem that has only gotten worse since flow was halted. I don't see how they can go back to flowing anyone in the new year if they couldn't do it in October. As far as we can see, there isn't going to be any flow in the winter or spring, we're losing weeks of seniority and YOS with every single OTS-only class that's hired, and we're now facing years and years of commuting to YYZ before being able to hold a YYC spot. There's absolutely no reason to wait around and see what's going to happen when there's any other opportunity out there. We're losing twenty experienced captains a month, upgrading four new ones, and not even filling every initial class. This rate of attrition isn't sustainable.

Sounds like a supply and demand problem. Encore is demanding more pilots than the supply is providing at the current price. You said it yourself, Encore pilots are paid below market value (industry average). How does a free market fix that? Increase the price!

Give Encore pilots a 30% raise, and the captain payscale tops out at 200 grand after 10 years. 16 days a month maximum. Wasn't there a port system long ago, where you could live anywhere you wanted on the network?

There, solved the recruitment and attrition problems. Encore is now a career worthy company.

That would be a start, but at this point I don't think even that would be enough. There's so much bad blood that making Encore a bit better than Jazz won't fix everything. We would have to be able to make enough at Encore to compensate for the wages that we would have made over our careers if we flowed and maintained our seniority numbers; they would have to increase the ESPP, or its replacement, to 20% to match mainline; there would have to be an improvement in scheduling efficiency so that we aren't guaranteed to be working max days every month, even if they reduce it by a couple; they would have to bring in jets so we at least have a chance of not spending our entire careers churning through thunderstorms and ice storms; and they would have to build some kind of guarantee of career security into our contract, so that they can't just spin Encore off and shut it down. The biggest draw of Encore, for me, was that I would eventually get to WestJet, and my career would be solid until retirement, but if I have to worry that I'll just get laid off when the next CPA expires, it won't matter how much they're paying me. If they decide to go back to being a North American LCC, everyone at WestJet would be fine, but Encore pilots would be screwed. Even then, with all that, at best it would stem some of the bleeding, but it wouldn't improve hiring. Why would a King Air captain go to Encore for essentially the same WAWCON as they could get at WestJet, when they could hold out for a 737 and some nice tropical layovers instead of Grande Prairie and Brandon on the Q? All those changes would cost millions, if not tens of millions of dollars a year, plus hundreds of millions in capital costs for any jets that they buy. Management will balk at that prospect.

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.

AC had to make major concessions at Jazz in the last TA to improve their staffing situation. They weren't even supposed to open the contract for another six years, but they had to so that they could maintain uninterrupted operations. Jazz pilots got more money, and a 90% chance at getting to AC after two years, with a 60% flow rate. Encore pilots have a 100% chance of getting to WestJet, but with a current flow rate of 0%, a wait time of about five years, and we make less money and work more days for it in the meantime. Oh, yeah, if we ever do flow we'll get the REIP, super. That'll make up the difference. I've been telling my FOs who are more than six months from an upgrade to just apply at Jazz and get on their way to AC, because it makes way more sense to get on that path than to stay on this one for the indefinite future. AC hasn't called me yet, so it might even be in my best interest to go to Jazz, take a pay-cut for a year, but be at AC in two or three, instead of waiting here for even longer than that just to flow. There's no incentive for anyone with any real experience to come to Encore anymore, so it's going to become a place where 250-hour pilots come to build time before they go to get a real airline job. I can see the training brochures now: "After you graduate flight school, you'll need to build some experience by going to an entry-level company like Wasaya, Air Tindi, or Encore."

[yvrpilot82]

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.

True. Although no one came to Jazz having being given a seniority number at the mothership, and then 5+ years later had it taken away because of a vote.

Entirely different situation, and people are quick to forget how many people got royally f*cked by this vote.

As for the Encore pilots being hired now...they know that they'll be starting from ground zero in the decade or so when they may flow over to WJ. I'm sure Encore will survive by hiring any scraps they can who can't get on at Jazz, AC, WJ, TS, SW and the likes.

[Yycjetdriver]

Jazz has survived for years with no “one list”, and no “regional pilot incentive program”. Encore will survive too.

I'm sure Encore will survive by hiring any scraps they can who can't get on at Jazz, AC, WJ, TS, SW and the likes.

Ummmm yeah... that’s usually how it works. It’s regional flying.....

[lostaviator]

Sometimes you pick a line thinking it’s the shortest but end up watching people pass you in the next line over.

A pilots number 1 motivator is upgrade time. They can pay encore pilots 50% more, but people will still leave if they think upgrades will be faster at Air Canada. WestJet can’t control the age of its workforce or the date they will retire.

Look at a one of our fellow forum members who went to swoop as a captain, had a WestJet seniority number, but couldn’t stand the thought of being an FO (WITH captain pay) after the arbitrators ruling so left to “greener pastures”. (That green paint is real ugly btw).

I supported the one list, but think we are all overly thinking how simple a problem this actually is. The one list isn’t going to stop Air Canada / Jazz being the more desirable option for the next 10 years.

It sucks to lose something you had, but everyone entering this industry is already hitting career milestones that took previous generations thousands of hours and decades to reach. Even without the one list, you’re seeing a mainline jet seat before the age of 25.

Maybe they will reach an agreement and put it out for another vote, but I don’t think that’s likely given the cost risk they managed to weasel out of with the language change. The cost of losing pilots hasn’t exceeded the potential cost of layoffs and back filling positions down the list.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Even without the one list, you’re seeing a mainline jet seat before the age of 25.

Are you kidding me? I don't know of anyone who got on at Encore before 23. Even then, I only know ONE person who started flying when they were 16 and were lucky enough to be able to afford to fly and gain experience before they were 25.

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

[North Shore]

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

Ohh, noes! In the not-too-far-ago past, I ran into my initial PPL flight instructor in the concourse in YVR. He'd been at JAzz for ~5years at that point, and was looking at about the same before an upgrade, let alone a shot at mainline. As we are about the same age, he'd started at Jazz at ~ 35...

[plausiblyannonymous]

At this rate, I don't expect to hit mainline until I am at least 35.

Ohh, noes! In the not-too-far-ago past, I ran into my initial PPL flight instructor in the concourse in YVR. He'd been at JAzz for ~5years at that point, and was looking at about the same before an upgrade, let alone a shot at mainline. As we are about the same age, he'd started at Jazz at ~ 35...

Now lets throw into the picture the guys who are at 1500 hours who are passing me into WestJet mainline.

It's a bit of a slap in the face.