One List

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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:04 am

Keeping the value of our stock options post Onex takeover is now dependent on us voting yes to the new pilot transfer agreement.
Great, tell your MEC that and don't use Encore as your leverage.
Take a moment and think about the whole situation, and then I urge you to reconsider who/what is being used as leverage.

Your MEC was in the room too, I suggest you ask them why they thought this was a good idea. More importantly, ask them why they keep delivering failing LOA's. Maybe it's time for a shakeup with both MEC.
We've just had a shakeup and our pilot group is not the ones who are saying that they are going to reject the new proposal before they know anything about it.
George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:49 am No likely it won't; likely there will be more fall-out too. Likely that puts pressure on WAWCON everywhere...
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tps8903
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Re: One List

Post by tps8903 »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:04 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:02 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:00 am Or maybe it's the fact we don't like being threatened with a pay cut for voting no.
Would you like to elaborate on that?
Keeping the value of our stock options post Onex takeover is now dependent on us voting yes to the new pilot transfer agreement.
The email said you will get full value market for the stock options if you vote yes. The alternative is to vote no and leave the value up to negotiations or an arbitrator. Neither of which will likely give you Black-Scholes value. So what exactly is the issue? You want more than market value?

I'm trying to understand.
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Last edited by tps8903 on Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:15 am
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:07 am

Great, tell your MEC that and don't use Encore as your leverage.
Take a moment and think about the whole situation, and then I urge you to reconsider who/what is being used as leverage.

Your MEC was in the room too, I suggest you ask them why they thought this was a good idea. More importantly, ask them why they keep delivering failing LOA's. Maybe it's time for a shakeup with both MEC.
We've just had a shakeup and our pilot group is not the ones who are saying that they are going to reject the new proposal before they know anything about it.
George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:49 am No likely it won't; likely there will be more fall-out too. Likely that puts pressure on WAWCON everywhere...
Know nothing about it? Do you read the things people write on here or do you just enjoy writing emotional statements? You aren't going to find many shoulders to cry on around here. Emotions aren't going to get the PTA passed.

The new PTA would stand a much better chance of passing if it wasn't tied to compensation. We have been dealing with this company for a long time and know when they are trying to pull a quick one on us.

I suggest you write your MEC and encourage them to reach out to the other parties in hopes of changing this before the vote opens. I intend to write my reps, but it takes all 5 groups to be on board to make any changes.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: One List

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:18 am [quote=plausiblyannonymous post_id=<a href="tel:1095476">1095476</a> time=<a href="tel:1573923571">1573923571</a> user_id=67461]
That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?
I fail to see how anyone is stabbing you in the back or how comradely only goes one way now. The only thing going one way was the proposed Transfer MOA.

We had a "One List" that an overwhelming majority of pilots voted Yes to in 2014.

Fast forward, the year is 2018/2019. 2 ALPA MEC's, WJ, Encore and Swoop sit down and dissolve the "One List" and spit something out called the "Pilot Transfer Agreement" with very different verbiage than the original "one list". The WJ pilots were concerned about the language so voted no.

WJ pilots never voted to eliminate the "One List". A $hitty new version was forced on us to vote for and we didn't like it. Why would we vote for something that is a step backwards? You don't have to vote yes to something the first time. A lesson I hope Encore has learned going forward. You voted on a backwards contract with no flow language.

Apparently the language has been modified and the next vote will start in a few weeks. Of course, they went and F'd it up another way now. We will see.
[/quote]
I completely agree. I will wait to see the offer before making a decision obviously however whenever there is a threat/bribe/extra condition attached in order to sway my vote ....I immediately get concerned and start leaning against acceptance. This whole issue has never been about mainline pilots screwing their Encore brothers and sisters. It was about mainline getting screwed over and we voted no to that, which directly affected the Encore pilots. The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm ...The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
That's why it cannot be done, continued hiring will only make the problem bigger. Air Canada "controlled" regional "expectations" by creating more competition; WestJet wants to do it by leveraging WJ seniority, because without it Encore would have to have an industry-standard deal. In truth however, such deals, or Air Canada 4 year freeze, sacrifice junior or future pilots, skew the market and are the real culprits in lowering industry standards. In principle, if there is to be a company-specific seniority, it should only be earned by working at the said company, period! As for WJ pilots, they deserve to have an MEC that represents their interests fully, and not against or for special groups, ALPA, Encore, etc!
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Hudson90
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 pm
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm ...The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
That's why it cannot be done, continued hiring will only make the problem bigger. Air Canada "controlled" regional "expectations" by creating more competition; WestJet wants to do it by leveraging WJ seniority, because without it Encore would have to have an industry-standard deal. In truth however, such deals, or Air Canada 4 year freeze, sacrifice junior or future pilots, skew the market and are the real culprits in lowering industry standards. In principle, if there is to be a company-specific seniority, it should only be earned by working at the said company, period! As for WJ pilots, they deserve to have an MEC that represents their interests fully, and not against or for special groups, ALPA, Encore, etc!


+1
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citizenbanana
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Re: One List

Post by citizenbanana »

cloak wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:41 pm
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm ...The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
That's why it cannot be done, continued hiring will only make the problem bigger. Air Canada "controlled" regional "expectations" by creating more competition; WestJet wants to do it by leveraging WJ seniority, because without it Encore would have to have an industry-standard deal. In truth however, such deals, or Air Canada 4 year freeze, sacrifice junior or future pilots, skew the market and are the real culprits in lowering industry standards. In principle, if there is to be a company-specific seniority, it should only be earned by working at the said company, period! As for WJ pilots, they deserve to have an MEC that represents their interests fully, and not against or for special groups, ALPA, Encore, etc!
+2
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Biff
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Re: One List

Post by Biff »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:23 pm The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.
Please do share. What was this rumour that caused me to vote the way I did?
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tbayav8er
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Re: One List

Post by tbayav8er »

Ex DC-10, and everyone else at mainline.....please don't let the opinions of the one or two Encore pilots on here talking this way about mainline pilots let that reflect badly on the rest of us.

Myself and 99.99% of the other Encore pilots don't feel that the mainline pilots tried to screw us. I know, as does the vast majority of everyone else at Encore that we need to come to an agreement that is beneficial for both pilot groups.

Personally, I hope that this PTA (which I still have yet to see) will include the provisions that the mainline pilots wish to see, and I hope consideration can be given to voting in favour of the one list, with flow provisions as well. With that, I hope to see provisions as well for mainline pilots to be able to flow back to Encore in the event of downsizing, etc.


Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:04 pm
lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:18 am [quote=plausiblyannonymous post_id=<a href="tel:1095476">1095476</a> time=<a href="tel:1573923571">1573923571</a> user_id=67461]
That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?
I fail to see how anyone is stabbing you in the back or how comradely only goes one way now. The only thing going one way was the proposed Transfer MOA.

We had a "One List" that an overwhelming majority of pilots voted Yes to in 2014.

Fast forward, the year is 2018/2019. 2 ALPA MEC's, WJ, Encore and Swoop sit down and dissolve the "One List" and spit something out called the "Pilot Transfer Agreement" with very different verbiage than the original "one list". The WJ pilots were concerned about the language so voted no.

WJ pilots never voted to eliminate the "One List". A $hitty new version was forced on us to vote for and we didn't like it. Why would we vote for something that is a step backwards? You don't have to vote yes to something the first time. A lesson I hope Encore has learned going forward. You voted on a backwards contract with no flow language.

Apparently the language has been modified and the next vote will start in a few weeks. Of course, they went and F'd it up another way now. We will see.
I completely agree. I will wait to see the offer before making a decision obviously however whenever there is a threat/bribe/extra condition attached in order to sway my vote ....I immediately get concerned and start leaning against acceptance. This whole issue has never been about mainline pilots screwing their Encore brothers and sisters. It was about mainline getting screwed over and we voted no to that, which directly affected the Encore pilots. The Encore pilots who are angry with the mainline pilots need to redirect their anger to where it belongs...the company and the MEC’s who forever what reason changed the one list wording. Now that so much time has gone past without rectifying the list and many have been hired this is only going to end ugly....someone will be unhappy in the end.
[/quote]
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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

Biff wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:34 pm
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:23 pm The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.
Please do share. What was this rumour that caused me to vote the way I did?
I’d like to know too. Especially considering alpa isn’t in the habit of releasing their survey results.

Every pilot I know who voted read the LOA and had concerns about the actual language. There was no “rumour” that influenced our vote.

Tbaya8er,

We know. Emotions are high and some people express them differently than others.

The major takeaway from this is: the door is never closed forever. The company has a long history of threatening us with money, jobs, career growth etc to get their way with a vote. One list, wide body moa, etc. But everyone always comes back to the table and things always get resolved.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

lostaviator wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:00 pm
Biff wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:34 pm
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:23 pm The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.
Please do share. What was this rumour that caused me to vote the way I did?
I’d like to know too. Especially considering alpa isn’t in the habit of releasing their survey results.

Every pilot I know who voted read the LOA and had concerns about the actual language. There was no “rumour” that influenced our vote.

Tbaya8er,

We know. Emotions are high and some people express them differently than others.

The major takeaway from this is: the door is never closed forever. The company has a long history of threatening us with money, jobs, career growth etc to get their way with a vote. One list, wide body moa, etc. But everyone always comes back to the table and things always get resolved.
It's something I picked up from a bunch of reading, but it is obviously just an opinion that I have.

Here is some of the stuff I have been reading through:
viewtopic.php?f=138&t=124291&p=1058183& ... y#p1058199
The Tenth Man wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:29 pm
ant_321 wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:09 pm Are you sure you failed that Chinese medical because of your eyes?
Well, I might not have, but it looks like the MEC Chairman might have failed due to not using his eyes to read. All he had to do was ask, I would have told him what the Seniority Policy was all about. With pictures!!!

From the ALPA forum, a post from my colleague:
Image
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Re: One List

Post by Gear Jerker »

Senior Encore Training Captain here. Choosing to flow whenever I can, now. Been patiently waiting for this thing to play out and trusting the MEC’s to negotiate in good faith and get this done.

From what I’ve seen of the new PTA comms, there is not enough info to vote yet. Hopefully the road shows will enlighten everyone and this turns out to be a good thing.

I winced a little when I first read the comms; it’s like a first world version of blackmail. I understand the frustration.

Therefore, I ask; if after seeing the actual language and thoroughly understanding all the conditions and their implications it is truly not acceptable, don’t accept going to a vote and rolling the dice! This goes to Encore pilots with our MEC, and WJ pilots with your MEC, don’t just put up with it! Nobody benefits from a second failed vote.

Surveys show overwhelming support for the one list in principle, despite the avcanada crowd appearing to show otherwise. It needs to get done right. If it’s not right, let’s make our elected groups go back to the table and fix the damn thing.

Morale is at an all time low at Encore these days. A second kick in the nuts would be ugly.
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

cloak wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:38 am It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.
Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?
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Rowdy
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Re: One List

Post by Rowdy »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:07 am
cloak wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:38 am It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.
Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?
He's also very Anti-ALPA.
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Re: One List

Post by Transonic »

There is a group of pilots who dislike ALPA, mainly due to AC/Regional seniority trouble of the 90s. This is understandable.

Many in this group intend to raid ALPA with a lower cost, more agreeable union within 2 years.

The main argument used against ALPA during the certification drive was that the one list would be impossible with ALPA. Therefore if the one list fails, the anti ALPA campaign strengthens.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:07 am
cloak wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:38 am It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.
Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?
It's not that I hate it, but don't believe a one list scheme is generally good for the industry for the reasons mentioned above. It masks market forces and skews the balance. Even though you've been at Encore for only a few months as you said, ask yourself this question: without a one list scheme what would it take for you (or others like you) to come or stay at Encore? And that's what it should be. Market forces defined by supply and demand. Air Canada gives no preferential treatment and no "top-up" pay, why do Encore pilots go there with its 4 year "probationary" pay? Worse yet, its regionals have no one list or guaranteed flow, why do pilots go there? Clearly one list is not the solution to recruitment.

There are more complexities in place too that have to do with setting precedent. It's not unreasonable to assume there will be further consolidation in the market. What happens if Onex buys other potentially older airlines? Merging of seniority lists which are NOT based on DOH is very lengthy and contentious. In the absence of a national seniority system, while seniority is company-specific, one has to work there to get it.

Now, what do you love about the one list, and why do you think a pilot should be put on the seniority list of another company?
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Last edited by cloak on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:59 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Rowdy wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:40 am
plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:07 am
cloak wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:38 am It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.
Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?
He's also very Anti-ALPA.
I can speak for myself and certainly not anti anything and open to all discussions. At the same time, one has to measure and judge results. In my opinion ALPA has not fostered close enough relationship to generate meaningful and fruitful negotiations. As a result it over-promised (Swoop paying mainline wages), and under-delivered (pay did not improve and bonus lost too). If pilots wanted transparency and to have a voice so that it doesn't feel like they are being told what to do; now it seems it is ALPA that tells them what to do! The MEC follows its own agenda and resists changes and results that are not to its liking. This is not democratic. Then there is the tying things together story! If you feel differently about ALPA's accomplishments in this case, please share. I'm happy to be proven wrong or for things to change in the future.
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Re: One List

Post by Mr. North »

Cloak, plenty of people in this thread and in others have proven you wrong time and again. Yet you continue along in some weird alternate reality of distorted facts and half truths. I don't really care personally but others with less understanding should know your posts are complete BS.
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Re: One List

Post by altiplano »

"certainly not anti anything"

"open to discussion"

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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?
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Re: One List

Post by plhought »

What the **** does ACPA have to do with a WestJet/Encore seniority list?

If you want to dig up grievences from 20 years ago go make a new thread.
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

cloak wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:04 am altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?


These guys don’t know what was going on 20 yrs ago Cloak. The majority of them were still pissing the bed. 🤣
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altiplano
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Re: One List

Post by altiplano »

Hi Hudson - I didn't know you were riding along with cloak...

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