Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

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whipline
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by whipline »

Please stop calling it “Sunwing’s”. We only have 1 wing.

Oh and we don’t hire pilots because they took an 8 month course.

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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

I don't recall stating that the one year program (that is, of course, after the individual already has a diploma or degree from elsewhere plus a commercial pilot license) had graduates with Sunwing (no "s") however Jazz has hired graduates of this program and Sunwing (no "s") has hired 285 hour pilots straight from the four year program.
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link821
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by link821 »

i think it should be a graduation requirement for all the Seneca wonders to have to do a "split" duty day and hold for 6 hours on a NWO airport terminal bench in -30.
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captainhack
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by captainhack »

I gave this program some thought as well. However, I am not convinced that this diploma will make a difference for a guy like me with 300 hours, a CPL/MIFR, and a "non-flying" aviation diploma from Seneca. As far as I am concerned, I have met the requirements of "Graduate from an Aviation College degree or diploma program".
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trey kule
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by trey kule »

L39 Guy.

I have read and reread all your posts on this thread. The sense I get is you are really, really promoting this program. And in a very well written way. So well written, in fact, that I can understand why people think you are not as advertised, and have some self interest in this program.

When I read posts such as you wrote, my reaction is to treat them as postamercials.

You do not write like the father of a son who went through the program. Rather more like a promoter defending the program.

If I was asked by a young one about this program, my advice would to be very very cautious. In my experience, Seneca does not have the best reputation, and their graduates are not consistently to the same standard of ability. But that is a very limited and personal opinion.

Be aware when you read glowing posts about a school program.
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Bradley Tucker
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Bradley Tucker »

I would never put someone down for getting an education. However I have hired both grads from the Seneca program and other schools I have had good and bad from both but I must say one of the best pilots I have hired did not come from the program he put many hours in as an instructor too. Great pilot both skill wise and attitude wise. He has been excepted to an airline. I have had graduates from Seneca that I hired. He lasted 3 days after training before he lied to me and others that I have had to council for violations from the Seneca program.

It all depends on the individual and they true desire to succeed in this industry.

So I'm not a fan of a system where someone with money that can afford the prices Seneca charges gets ahead of a damn good pilot that went out and got real world experience. All that sim perks that L39 spoke of you will get on initial and recurrent. The real world decision making skills from in (L39's) less then desirable operators these students will never have to make. That is a skill in this industry that should be worth more then any paper.

I will never not hire a graduate but I would not choose that over good old hard work and real life experiences no I would not, Actually maybe I would lean the other way. I can teach a pilot the systems I can not taeach them experience. Let's look at the IFR if these graduates go to the airline right out school it is possible that the first time they see the inside of a cloud will be with 30-90 passengers on board. How would that make a passenger feel.
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snowcrest
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by snowcrest »

Genuine question - coming from someone in the Seneca 4 year program:

Why do you guys have such a vendetta against the Seneca/college programs? In every college thread there's always one or more old-timers who shudder at the words "aviation college". Are you pissed that you did not get the same opportunities back in the day ?

Also, try to answer the question first before you inevitably question my integrity.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C-GGGQ »

Seneca etc. Is seen as lowering standards And degrading training. 5kt Crosswind Limits, leaving gear down in the circuit and other such gems we have seen over the years since these programs turned into "puppy mills" they also seem to usually get an attitude about how good said program is when in reality their flight skills are not any better and in many anecdotal experiences worse than those who found a reliable private school and worked their butts off on their own. But they got an "aviation diploma" and are therefore desirable to air Canada. So guys who worked their way up through northern operators after financing their own training and networking take it poorly when some "snot nosed college grad" gets to check and extra box on their application and jump ahead of them due to a computer algorithm
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

leaving gear down in the circuit
Of all the unorthodox procedures they have that has to be the most dangerous one that one can imagine.

If they were incompetent enough to do that what would be the chance of their handling an engine failure in that configuration?

How in hell did T.C. turn their backs on that one?
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captainhack
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by captainhack »

Snowcrest, the reason so many people dislike Seneca graduates is because of the ego that some those individuals display. As an example, I was working somewhere with Seneca students and one of them decided to tell me: “your XYZ school can’t get you into Jazz. You will need to make atleast 1000 hours instructing or flying somewhere for Jazz to even glance at your resume. We get hired and have a cadet program because Jazz know we are best flight school in all of Canada and we are the most successful pilots out there”.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by snowcrest »

captainhack wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:10 am Snowcrest, the reason so many people dislike Seneca graduates is because of the ego that some those individuals display. As an example, I was working somewhere with Seneca students and one of them decided to tell me: “your XYZ school can’t get you into Jazz. You will need to make atleast 1000 hours instructing or flying somewhere for Jazz to even glance at your resume. We get hired and have a cadet program because Jazz know we are best flight school in all of Canada and we are the most successful pilots out there”.
That is fair.
I can definitely see the ego you talk about.. some students can't help but have a stick up their a** 24/7. It's funny because they put on this obnoxious personality even when they're with their fellow peers.
I do unfortunately see a lot of generalising on here (not necessarily from you, just the broader picture). There are some truly hardworking, humble people in the program that are giving it their all, and I reckon they work just as hard as the old-timers did back in the day.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

and I reckon they work just as hard as the old-timers did back in the day.
When was "" back in the day? ""
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

snowcrest wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:11 am Genuine question - coming from someone in the Seneca 4 year program:

Why do you guys have such a vendetta against the Seneca/college programs? In every college thread there's always one or more old-timers who shudder at the words "aviation college". Are you pissed that you did not get the same opportunities back in the day ?
The same answer I would give to anyone in any degree program espousing arrogance.

The notion often claimed that something worthwhile was achieved by attaining a degree of any kind, is offensive in the extreme to those who have achieved significant careers, in any field.

I continue to learn from the practioner "old timers" in my field. Myself and my peers mock the academics for their foolishness.

Degree students too often think the only learning is from professors afraid of leaving the classroom, who couldn't survive in the real world.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

The notion often claimed that something worthwhile was achieved by attaining a degree of any kind, is offensive in the extreme to those who have achieved significant careers, in any field.
Especially in the field of aviation where the only education needed is the ability to read and write.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:31 pm
The notion often claimed that something worthwhile was achieved by attaining a degree of any kind, is offensive in the extreme to those who have achieved significant careers, in any field.
Especially in the field of aviation where the only education needed is the ability to read and write.

More than a few degree holders I've encountered cannot accomplish either of those tasks with sufficient competence.
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

trey kule wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:46 am L39 Guy.

I have read and reread all your posts on this thread. The sense I get is you are really, really promoting this program. And in a very well written way. So well written, in fact, that I can understand why people think you are not as advertised, and have some self interest in this program.

When I read posts such as you wrote, my reaction is to treat them as postamercials.

You do not write like the father of a son who went through the program. Rather more like a promoter defending the program.

If I was asked by a young one about this program, my advice would to be very very cautious. In my experience, Seneca does not have the best reputation, and their graduates are not consistently to the same standard of ability. But that is a very limited and personal opinion.

Be aware when you read glowing posts about a school program.
Trey,

I assume that you have read what I wrote about the CAE/Jazz/Seneca program in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=1095990#p1095990.

Without revealing too much behind my handle (L39 Guy), a previous poster gave away a lot of my background - B787 Captain at AC, a Professional Engineer, etc. I did my flying training through the military many years ago and have been flying professionally for 36 years.

I can assure you that I am no marketing guy and thank you for the compliment about my writing skills; I do a lot of writing but have to work hard on the grammar, etc.

I did have a son go through 1 year Airline Pilot Flight Operations program at Seneca. He did this with a university degree and the multi-IFR, etc. prerequisites with the flying training from a hodge-podge of flying schools, instructors, etc. I thought the ~$12K we spent on the program the best ~12K I have ever spent on flying training. This is why.

First, he did not do an integrated flying training program like one would do in the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc. This program pulled together all of the training he did at the various flying schools/instructors and filled in any gaps.

The academics taught in the 1 year program are focused and applicable, unlike something like calculus which is not very useful when an engine is on fire. Subjects like aircraft performance, computer programming (FMS programming), crew resource management, etc. These were all subjects that are directly applicable in day-to-day professional flying.

The flight training, all in simulators, on the Beech King Air and CRJ provided not just an "endorsement" but was also done with excellent training scenarios taught by experienced aviators. In fact, one of his simulator instructors was a coursemate of mine in the Air Force who went on to fly for Emirates before returning to Canada. Pretty tough to beat that kind of experience to teach in an airline-type, multi-crew operation.

I have flown with my son after the Seneca program; he is a different aviator - more professional, SOP, disciplined and technically savvy, the kind of pilot I would want to have beside me in any airline operation. He finished that program a changed aviator.

Since then he has been hired by Jazz as his first professional flying job. I couldn't be happier as he is going to get amazing experience and training with them. And, with the Jazz agreement with Air Canada, he will be at AC in a few years although I hope he spends a few years at Jazz including in the left seat when the time is right.

I have flown with many Seneca graduates during my time at AC and I would have to say that with a few exceptions they have been first class. But you are going to find that in every group of people. The Seneca (or Mount Royal or other) grads that show up thinking they know everything are in for a rude surprise but those that accept that they still have lot to learn are both a pleasure to fly with and easy to fly with as they know their stuff either from their Seneca (or Mount Royal or other) training or from a professional attitude.

I would also go as far as to rate Seneca pretty close to the military in terms of the product they produce for an airline cockpit. Agreed, they don't do some of the fun stuff we did in the military like formation, aerobatics, low-level navigation, etc., however their CRM and flying skills are top drawer. There are those on this forum who pooh-pooh Seneca grads (and Mount Royal grads) as being 250 hour wonders with no business in a Dash 8 or Q400 cockpit; I would like to point out that the military has 250 hour wonders go into fast jet (solo) cockpits, C17's, Aurora's, C130's, Airbus A310. It can be done and done safely with the proper training and supervision from the organization and an aviator with good background training and the right attitude.

WRT the new CAE/Jazz/Seneca program, my comments the other day ago about the cost/benefit and career risk speaks for itself. If one want to flying medivacs or bush or floats then this is not for you; if one wants to wear a tie and fly 705 this program is an excellent ticket into Jazz thence Air Canada. When you do the math of the costs, the post-secondary+endorsements is almost the same as post-secondary+CAE/Jazz with the big difference being the latter is a ticket into Jazz then Air Canada.

Finally, a word about post-secondary education as those of us with it seem to get bad-mouthed and should be ashamed of having achieved it. A post-secondary education does not mean that one is smarter than one without it; I have met plenty of people without a post-secondary education that are pretty brilliant; conversely, I have met some people with a post-secondary education that are pretty dumb.

But what a post-secondary education does is prove that one can learn. Most of the material in post-secondary education one quickly forgets and perhaps never want to see again. Calculus comes to mind. But being a professional aviator is a continual learning experience. Name me another profession or trade does the amount of training we do, particularly at the 705 level. Yes, doctors, lawyers, dentists, engineers, accountants, etc. do professional development, sometimes while on a cruise ship. But how many go back to school for two to three months at a time every few years as we do when we learn a new aircraft? Not many.

So as professional aviators we are in a constant training and learning environment and someone with a post-secondary education has proven that they can learn. That doesn’t mean that someone that doesn’t have a post secondary education can’t, all it means is that one with the degree or diploma can. Sort of like having a instrument rating; if you have one you have proven that you can do it, if you don’t there is a risk that you might not be able to do it.

I suspect that is why AC places and emphasis on a post-secondary education, as well as this CAE/Jazz program as well as all major US carriers that require a college degree.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by trey kule »

Well, thank you for another well written post.

I am not sure where the post secondary issue was raised, but I agree.it does demonstrate something about discipline and learning. I hated calculus much more than an engine failure.

Comparing the military training to a college program is a bit of apples to oranges .
But that is just a personal opinion.

My concern was, is, and will be , that without any real experience in command, it is going to be a future problem when these pilots get command and are dealing with an FO like they were. Right now there is a good experience gradient in the cockpit, which provides both a safe cockpit and a place for an FO to learn.
That experience gradient is going to be drastically reduced in the next decade.

Automation is changing what is means and takes to be a pilot in the 705 world, but until automation gets much better, we need pilots who can deal with an abnormal situation with means other than calling for a checklist.

Come to think of it. The military could save a whole bunch of time if they did all their initial training on the Hornets! Wonder why they don’t. And no selection process on who goes to fighters, transport or helicopters either. I think it is just a random draw for all graduates.
Just saying.....
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Last edited by trey kule on Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by digits_ »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:11 pm
snowcrest wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:11 am Genuine question - coming from someone in the Seneca 4 year program:

Why do you guys have such a vendetta against the Seneca/college programs? In every college thread there's always one or more old-timers who shudder at the words "aviation college". Are you pissed that you did not get the same opportunities back in the day ?
The same answer I would give to anyone in any degree program espousing arrogance.

The notion often claimed that something worthwhile was achieved by attaining a degree of any kind, is offensive in the extreme to those who have achieved significant careers, in any field.

I continue to learn from the practioner "old timers" in my field. Myself and my peers mock the academics for their foolishness.

Degree students too often think the only learning is from professors afraid of leaving the classroom, who couldn't survive in the real world.
How many planes would be flying around without academics or people getting degrees? Without an organized way of transferring knowledge, societies would evolve much slower. A lot less people would gain the necessary knowledge if you had to read books by yourselves.

Maybe if we get those "old timers" to write down their knowledge and have them deal with people willing to learn directly, we could make it more efficient. Oh wait, that is basically what college/university is...

You can give it any name you want, but you need to organize something. People don't just get born with knowledge and understanding of advanced aerodynamics.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

There are many people who have not received degrees or even high school education due to being born into a situation where the family just did not have the economic means to provide their children with higher education.

Yet a lot of these people did manage to self educate and become very successful in the field of work they wanted to be in.

Fortunately those who want to become pilots have chosen a field where advanced education is not a prerequisite for success.

That is why I am not a brain surgeon. :mrgreen:
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by trey kule »

I don’t think anyone doubts that advanced education is necessarily the end all, be all.Advanced education does indicate that a person can study, gain knowledge, and has self discipline. University is not about being smart. It is about applying oneself. Smarts alone won’t cut it for very long ( and of course there are exceptions because we cant have a discussion on generalities).

So, two people apply to get on with an airline. One with post secondary education, one without. The HR folks can assume that success in and the post secondary world is indicative a new hire will be able to absorb and practice the material. There are other tests for flying ability decision making etc. It is but one marker.

Now , the person without the advanced education. They are an unknown. Maybe they will succeed, maybe not. Unless the pickings are slim or they really shine in another area, time to take a pass. Fair? Maybe not, and I expect airlines have passed on some potentially great pilots.

Also, after post secondary education, a pilot is older ( which, however politically incorrect it is to say age matters, it generally does). They are not fresh out of high school and saying being a pilot sounds neat. Only downside is cirrhosis of the liver.

It is all to easy to say, look at me. But exceptions are not the rule. People sometimes forget that.

I can recall spending three days taking a COMPASS test, knowledge tests,medicals, and a nice chat with the company psychologist. Never could figure why they passed on some pilots I thought were pretty good types..Everyone has their biases.
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