Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

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C-GGGQ
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C-GGGQ »

See everyone says "post secondary proves you can learn" yes....so does ppl cpl mifr etc. They all had ground work etc. This person obviously learned their licenses ratings and prior ppc's so I'm somewhat dubious at that claim. The fact that you are at AC AT etc with a few thousand hours experience shows you can learn.
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digits_
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by digits_ »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:00 pm See everyone says "post secondary proves you can learn" yes....so does ppl cpl mifr etc. They all had ground work etc. This person obviously learned their licenses ratings and prior ppc's so I'm somewhat dubious at that claim. The fact that you are at AC AT etc with a few thousand hours experience shows you can learn.
The study requirement to pass a ground school course or even a typerating course is negligible compared to the study requirements to pass a college or university degree.

You can argue the merit of a degree, but it is a much better indicator to judge someone's capacity to study/learn than passing an ATPL ground school.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

I would say look at the overall quality of the learning these days. As a pure filtering device, companies often use a degree.

Post secondary in my field anyway, proves absolutely nothing about the ability to productively apply what one has learned, too often rote and memory learning, in a disciplined fashion.

If top level MBA's were the be all and end all in my field, every top graduate would trounce the S&P 500 every year. They don't. 98% of active managers fail by that standard, because they didn't learn critical thinking skills in school.

I can't see aviation being THAT different. So a top school can turn out first class FO's that can operate very well by rote.

And what happens when the sh-t hits the fan, something not in the book? Maybe I'm wrong?.

I do not believe most post secondary education teaches the independence, critical thinking, problem solving, and risk management skills that many advanced fields require. Mentoring is required.

There is a reason, ie, new doctors are made interns, and not given supervisory level responsibility.


This isn't a zero sum argument. Those considering must also weigh the burden of a six figure student debt at the end of their education. Costs have exploded and quality has degraded.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

I realise it is to late to make any difference now, but I have a question.

Had I gone beyond grade school would I have been a better pilot?
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by TT1900 »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:44 pm I realise it is to late to make any difference now, but I have a question.

Had I gone beyond grade school would I have been a better pilot?
Define 'better'. It's possible your career would have taken a different path. While a degree has little to do with stick and rudder flying it certainly doesn't hurt and opens several possibilities closed to those without. Find me a recent graduate of any of the large test-pilot schools that lacks a degree and I'll show you the unicorn I keep in my backyard.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:44 pm I realise it is to late to make any difference now, but I have a question.

Had I gone beyond grade school would I have been a better pilot?
There is no way of determining that without knowing you, knowing your career arc and your desired career arc. Unfair question and academic now anyways.

Reading between the lines in your previous posts I would guess that you have been in this industry 40+ years now. Lots has changed since you first started. Hands and feet skills are still required (we saw that in spades with Lion Air accident and its final report and the Ethopian accident too but that's another thread). In the airline industry in the 70's there was no such thing as FMS's, CRM, ADS-B, CPDLC, etc., etc. That doesn't mean that someone without post secondary can't learn about this, as they clearly do, but flying aircraft is far more complex than the stick and rudder days of the B737-200, B727, DC8, DC9, etc.

But most importantly, it is the employer that is demanding post-secondary education in the hiring matrix. I'm not going to go to all of the websites and post links but AC, Jazz, WJ, Encore, Porter, Transat, Sunwings, Pacific Coastal, CMA, etc all note a post-secondary requirement as a desired qualification just like a commercial, multi-IFR, etc. They all have lots of experience hiring and training pilots and clearly their experience must be that those with post secondary are easier to train, all other things being equal.

As I have noted earlier, if flying for a 705 operation is not your career objective, then a post-secondary education may not be key hiring requirement with those operators; if, however, one's flying objective is with one of the 705 operators noted above, then a post-secondary education is but one of the hiring determinants.

It's a competitive employment environment even if the "pilot shortage" has come to fruition. There is no shortage per se but there may be a shortage of qualified or "ideal" hiring candidates. At AC, with 70% of new hires coming from Jazz/SR that leaves on 30% coming from "off the other street". In the next year that means 240 of the 800 hires will not be Jazz/SR. I have heard that there are 2000 applicants meeting the minimum requirements for those 240 positions. After this hiring spurt due to FTD and domestic growth, things will slow down to 200 per year of which 60 will be non-Jazz/SR.

All of the other carriers will be hiring too but not in those numbers but presumably those 2000 applicants that meet the minimum AC requirements (which include post-secondary) will also be seeking the jobs at WJ, Encore, etc. It will be a while before those 2000 individuals are absorbed by AC and the others and in the interim the pipeline will produce more qualified applicants coming out of the military, overseas, etc.

Will the industry ever get to the point where post-secondary won't be a requirement? Not likely, according to my assessment.

Whether you agree or disagree with the post-secondary requirement, it's a fact-of-life in this industry (and other industries that heretofore never required advanced education either). My advice for a young person entering this industry desiring to fly in the 705 world is to pursue a post-secondary education in something they are interested in to not only check that box but also for self fulfillment and an educational back-up should the aviation career not pan out for whatever reason (medical issues, etc).
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by twa22 »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:51 am
C.W.E. wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:44 pm I realise it is to late to make any difference now, but I have a question.

Had I gone beyond grade school would I have been a better pilot?
In the airline industry in the 70's there was no such thing as FMS's, CRM, ADS-B, CPDLC, etc., etc. That doesn't mean that someone without post secondary can't learn about this, as they clearly do, but flying aircraft is far more complex than the stick and rudder days of the B737-200, B727, DC8, DC9, etc.

But most importantly, it is the employer that is demanding post-secondary education in the hiring matrix.

They all have lots of experience hiring and training pilots and clearly their experience must be that those with post secondary are easier to train, all other things being equal.
I was going to quote your other post regarding degrees and that they show you have the ability to learn.

They don't, at least for the most part they don't. The amount of people that have degrees, and can't differentiate left from right is outright scary... I have gotten to the point where I trust almost no one who is "qualified", because frankly, they are full of shit and don't have a clue what they're talking about.

You don't have to understand what you're "learning", you just simply need to regurgitate the material and be able to pass some exams and voila, you have a degree.

Don't get me wrong, the concept of a degree and the material taught is obviously meant to be useful, and if one actually likes what they are "learning", they will put a conscious effort in understanding what they "learned" to put the useful material into practice... but these days that doesn't seem to be the case, in my opinion

For what it's worth I have a degree, but in terms of material learned, it's of no real added value in the practical, working world. On the other hand, I have self taught myself many different things, and a lot my friends would consider me the most handy person they know... however, the fact that I don't have a "professional" designation, certification, or "degree" relating to fixing things (things like plumbing), means I cannot be trusted to work or fix something... and you know what's really sad about all of that? I have actually fixed things when the "professional" with a designation couldn't. It was only then that people realized "oh wait, this guy seems to know a thing or two". This point isn't meant to boast about myself, it is to try and prove a point on this whole twisted view of "degree" or "designation", which many employers fail to see, in my opinion of course
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by digits_ »

twa22 wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:03 am For what it's worth I have a degree, but in terms of material learned, it's of no real added value in the practical, working world. On the other hand, I have self taught myself many different things, and a lot my friends would consider me the most handy person they know... however, the fact that I don't have a "professional" designation, certification, or "degree" relating to fixing things (things like plumbing), means I cannot be trusted to work or fix something... and you know what's really sad about all of that? I have actually fixed things when the "professional" with a designation couldn't. It was only then that people realized "oh wait, this guy seems to know a thing or two". This point isn't meant to boast about myself, it is to try and prove a point on this whole twisted view of "degree" or "designation", which many employers fail to see, in my opinion of course
How would you propose companies determine in a half hour interview if you have the ability to learn, without using a degree as a frame of reference?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

How would you propose companies determine in a half hour interview if you have the ability to learn, without using a degree as a frame of reference?
How come I have flown for some of the worlds biggest companies and was never asked about my education background???

Not even once.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

My problem isn't with a university degree per se. It's with the exploding costs of one, the degrading quality (in my view) and the massive debt burden it places young folks under at the beginning of their working lives. It's become too often a giant scam, and a stupid requirement.

I can tell in 10 minutes in any interview, who I'm dealing with and if they can learn. Degree or no degree. But I'm not an HR drone.

Debt is a horrible thing to get out from under, especially these days.

The smartest thing I DID NOT do was get a degree, because if I had, there is no way I could have started my business.

AC should be thinking of the effects of their policies. Who is to say that extra massive debt load doesn't have a factor in pilots taking extra overtime, fly overtired, and you end up with an SFO situation?

Prove me wrong.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

twa22 wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:03 am For what it's worth I have a degree, but in terms of material learned, it's of no real added value in the practical, working world. On the other hand, I have self taught myself many different things, and a lot my friends would consider me the most handy person they know... however, the fact that I don't have a "professional" designation, certification, or "degree" relating to fixing things (things like plumbing), means I cannot be trusted to work or fix something... and you know what's really sad about all of that? I have actually fixed things when the "professional" with a designation couldn't. It was only then that people realized "oh wait, this guy seems to know a thing or two". This point isn't meant to boast about myself, it is to try and prove a point on this whole twisted view of "degree" or "designation", which many employers fail to see, in my opinion of course
Has it occurred to you that perhaps the reason why you are so good at these self taught things is that you learned to think in a post-secondary education and don't realize it?

I disagree with your claim that post-secondary is a matter of regurgitating what you read in a textbook; some of it is perhaps but a lot of it is applied, i.e. physics, chemistry, mathematics, engineering subjects, law course (apply legal principles). Even arts course such as history asks you to interpret events not just a repeat of what you may read in a textbook.

But is there not value in learning by rote too? SOP's, checklists, aircraft limitations, etc. are all rote learning. Seems to me that that is pretty applicable in the aviation business.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

C.W.E. wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:42 am
How would you propose companies determine in a half hour interview if you have the ability to learn, without using a degree as a frame of reference?
How come I have flown for some of the worlds biggest companies and was never asked about my education background???

Not even once.
What stage of your career did you apply for these flying positions? Were you a 250 hour wonder or had accumulated thousands of hours by then? Were you already type endorsed?

What would your advice be to a young person starting out in this business that is interested in 705 type flying in the face of all of the air carriers seeking a post secondary education? Would you counsel them to not get it and risk not getting hired?
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

What stage of your career did you apply for these flying positions? Were you a 250 hour wonder or had accumulated thousands of hours by then? Were you already type endorsed?
I started my flying career in the mid fifties and my first flying job was as a flight instructor for about a year or two.

Then I took an aerial applicators flying course and went into Ag. flying for 13 years.

Next I did fire suppression flying for 15 years.

In between these jobs I flew bush flying and general charter flying with a couple of years flying for a scheduled airline which convinced me that type of flying was not for me because it was so repetitive.

So I started my own business and from there just did contract flying which was all by referral from previous clients.

My most interesting flying job was flying for Miramax movies in California, and it was also the best paying.

I finally retired after fifty one years of flying for a living.
What would your advice be to a young person starting out in this business that is interested in 705 type flying in the face of all of the air carriers seeking a post secondary education? Would you counsel them to not get it and risk not getting hired?
Carefully research the cost of qualifying compared to the wages you can expect to make.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

C.W.E. wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:57 am
What would your advice be to a young person starting out in this business that is interested in 705 type flying in the face of all of the air carriers seeking a post secondary education? Would you counsel them to not get it and risk not getting hired?
Carefully research the cost of qualifying compared to the wages you can expect to make.
Outstanding advice.

L39 you are assuming by the time someone starts a degree program today there will be jobs waiting, to pay off the resulting education debt.

In a few years I happen to see the world in a very different place.

Then again I do not have a degree.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by ant_321 »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:28 am
C.W.E. wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:42 am
How would you propose companies determine in a half hour interview if you have the ability to learn, without using a degree as a frame of reference?
How come I have flown for some of the worlds biggest companies and was never asked about my education background???

Not even once.
What stage of your career did you apply for these flying positions? Were you a 250 hour wonder or had accumulated thousands of hours by then? Were you already type endorsed?

What would your advice be to a young person starting out in this business that is interested in 705 type flying in the face of all of the air carriers seeking a post secondary education? Would you counsel them to not get it and risk not getting hired?
I won’t argue about the merits of a post secondary education. I do think the 18 month Seneca program you promote is a crock of shit but that’s another matter. I will say that the only airline in Canada that puts any significant weight on post secondary is AC and only then only if you’re coming from off the street. I went to a small flight school and everyone I went to school with and my students have had no problem succeeding in the airline world. All of us work for Sunwing, Westjet, Jazz, encore, Transat or Air Canada. Nobody has any post secondary. With the way things are going now I could even argue that you would be better off getting your training done ASAP and getting a job before the music stops. A degree will do you no good when nobody is hiring.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by twa22 »

digits_ wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:30 am
twa22 wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:03 am For what it's worth I have a degree, but in terms of material learned, it's of no real added value in the practical, working world. On the other hand, I have self taught myself many different things, and a lot my friends would consider me the most handy person they know... however, the fact that I don't have a "professional" designation, certification, or "degree" relating to fixing things (things like plumbing), means I cannot be trusted to work or fix something... and you know what's really sad about all of that? I have actually fixed things when the "professional" with a designation couldn't. It was only then that people realized "oh wait, this guy seems to know a thing or two". This point isn't meant to boast about myself, it is to try and prove a point on this whole twisted view of "degree" or "designation", which many employers fail to see, in my opinion of course
How would you propose companies determine in a half hour interview if you have the ability to learn, without using a degree as a frame of reference?
I will expand a little bit to further clarify. I do not doubt that a degree can help in obtaining a job, and there obviously is good use of a degree, but the problem is the way companies and more importantly, society views degrees... it's kind of a stigma nowadays, people sort of look down at you if you don't have that shiny piece of paper, and I believe companies look at it this way and that is, in my opinion, a wrong way to view a candidate... too much emphasis is placed on degrees and schooling, and other things are overlooked. Rookiepilot summed it well in his post
L39Guy wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:19 am
twa22 wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:03 am For what it's worth I have a degree, but in terms of material learned, it's of no real added value in the practical, working world. On the other hand, I have self taught myself many different things, and a lot my friends would consider me the most handy person they know... however, the fact that I don't have a "professional" designation, certification, or "degree" relating to fixing things (things like plumbing), means I cannot be trusted to work or fix something... and you know what's really sad about all of that? I have actually fixed things when the "professional" with a designation couldn't. It was only then that people realized "oh wait, this guy seems to know a thing or two". This point isn't meant to boast about myself, it is to try and prove a point on this whole twisted view of "degree" or "designation", which many employers fail to see, in my opinion of course
Has it occurred to you that perhaps the reason why you are so good at these self taught things is that you learned to think in a post-secondary education and don't realize it?

I disagree with your claim that post-secondary is a matter of regurgitating what you read in a textbook; some of it is perhaps but a lot of it is applied, i.e. physics, chemistry, mathematics, engineering subjects, law course (apply legal principles). Even arts course such as history asks you to interpret events not just a repeat of what you may read in a textbook.

But is there not value in learning by rote too? SOP's, checklists, aircraft limitations, etc. are all rote learning. Seems to me that that is pretty applicable in the aviation business.
No, post secondary had nothing to do with it because I was already learning on my own well before post secondary as I am a curious person by nature. If something interests me, I'll go ahead and learn it. I also went through certain things in my life which forced me to learn certain things on my own out of necessity... education isn't always something that is taught by a teacher or professor
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