Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

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C.W.E.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by C.W.E. »

Time as in hours flown is really not a good indication of flying experience.

The type of flying is far more important in the learning context.

After thirty thousand hours of logging time I finally just quit keeping track although the learning process never ended.

The things that stand out in my mind about flying are my years of aerial application both fixed and rotary wing which was the best part of my career.

When I look back and think about the really dangerous kinds of flying three things stand out.

First and most dangerous was flying during the Harmattan dust storms in the Sahara Desert
.
Second was white outs in the high arctic flying DC3's .

Third was the years I spent ferrying airplanes below FL180 through the ITCZ in South America and Africa.

If I had my life to live over I would choose the kind of flying I was fortunate enough to have done.

The amazing part for me was somehow I managed to get through it without ever bending an airplane, helicopter or gyroplane.

By the way gyroplanes were the most fun to fly.
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vermont
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by vermont »

daedalusx wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:14 pm
Honey ! I’m home.
Good news ! I re-mortgaged the house and our kids future so I can buy a 150 000$ job that will allow me to fly a shiny jet for 40k a year.

Why yes I’ll be gone 19 days a month while you have to stay here alone, work and take care of the kids. But you’ll get to tell your friends at work that your husband works for AIR CANADA express.

Why yes I could have taken a local job on a Kingair or a PC12 that would have me be home everyday and paid twice as much but honey, on the RJ I can Instagram #propsareforboats!
Yeah I’d be more worried about Tyrone and the homeboys taking care of your old lady at this point ....
The syndrome is strong in you. :lol: You realize single day trips are doable at Jazz right? You realize "home every night" in a pc12 doesn't freaking count if you have to move your home to the other side of the country? :rolleyes:

I don't have kids yet, so if I do need to build seniority for a few years and have over night trips so be it. Also if your afraid of your wife cheating on you, seems like you're very shitty at choosing a partner.

150K is a big risk, but considering making over 200k less than 10 years into your career is very doable I think it's worth the risk.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by C.W.E. »

150K is a big risk, but considering making over 200k less than 10 years into your career is very doable I think it's worth the risk.
Things must have changed since I was in the industry I can't remember many pilots getting to that pay level in less than ten years.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Daniel Cooper »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:51 pm Things must have changed since I was in the industry I can't remember many pilots getting to that pay level in less than ten years.
There are NB Captains at AC in their 20's, I've heard.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by C.W.E. »

There are NB Captains at AC in their 20's, I've heard.
That is worth going for for sure.
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ayseven
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by ayseven »

It is still a huge financial risk. Nobody should do this for money really. They should do it for the stories.
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digits_
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by digits_ »

ayseven wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:24 pm It is still a huge financial risk. Nobody should do this for money really. They should do it for the stories.
I think we found the root cause of shitty pilot wages in Canada!
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by ayseven »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvx0Duqy3N8


We can wish it to be different but it is so.
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vermont
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by vermont »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:02 pm
ayseven wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:24 pm It is still a huge financial risk. Nobody should do this for money really. They should do it for the stories.
I think we found the root cause of shitty pilot wages in Canada!
I get what he's saying, if you're chasing money more than happiness you'll likely be disappointed at least for the first several years
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

vermont wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:38 pm
digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:02 pm
ayseven wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:24 pm It is still a huge financial risk. Nobody should do this for money really. They should do it for the stories.
I think we found the root cause of shitty pilot wages in Canada!
I get what he's saying, if you're chasing money more than happiness you'll likely be disappointed at least for the first several years
Wait, so you don’t even have your CPL and you’re already speaking like you’ve got a job at Jazz? Oh boy..

For what it’s worth, the “college kids” with no experience up North weren’t really “welcomed” on the line when I was there. Perhaps things have changed since.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by DonutHole »

C.W.E. wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:34 pm
Who the hell is .?
My real name is . . and I have been posting on Avcanada since the forum first started.

By using my real name I feel it gives my opinions and advice about flying more credibility.


The only thing I"m learning here, is everyone has the @#$! you I suffered so you should as well mentality that's so common these days!
One thing about my flying career I sure never suffered either mentally or monetarily that is for sure.

In fact by the end of my over fifty years of flying for a living I was paid very well for my time, very well.

As an example I operated a business giving advanced flying instruction and my hourly rate was 250 Euro per flight hour.
When are you coming up this way again .?
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by DonutHole »

vermont wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:24 pm
C.W.E. wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:55 am
. should not even interact with people so out of it.

I am optimistic ayseven, I still believe that ignorance can be cured through education.

Maybe vermont will learn through osmosis.
The only thing I"m learning here, is everyone has the @#$! you I suffered so you should as well mentality that's so common these days!
What you should be learning is that working up north flying in challenging vfr conditions, making the move to ifr on a small turbine and then moving to the airlines isn't 'suffering' it is learning your trade. I am not surprised to find entitled millenials love the idea of simply buying their way into a heavy. It isn't about "paying your dues" it is about learning how to make appropriate command decisions on your own in challenging circumstances and then translating that knowledge into the career in the airlines. Personally, If I could know which aircraft have these pay to play goofs at the helm I wouldn't get on.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by daedalusx »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:55 am
Wait, so you don’t even have your CPL and you’re already speaking like you’ve got a job at Jazz? Oh boy..

For what it’s worth, the “college kids” with no experience up North weren’t really “welcomed” on the line when I was there. Perhaps things have changed since.

Entitled ? nonono he says he'll settle for a Q400 right after the ink dries on his CPL. :lol:

You know, as someone who was actually a taxi specialist at little red, the biggest sight of relief at check-in in the crew room after the usual meet and greet was "Oh yeah I was on the Twin/Kingair/PC12 at Borek, Perimeter, Tindi, Carson, Summit, Keewatin ..."
As a Capt you'd know that your fellow airman would be an actual force multiplier and you wouldn't have to spend the next couple of days babysitting.

As an FO you knew you were in good hands if you were flying with a young Borek Capt even if he hasn't had his first recurrent PPC, why ? Because it's impossible to have command time up north (or way down south in the case of my Borek friends) and not have made a command decision affecting the life of your passengers. You think a 3month type rating course can ever match 5-10 years of hard experience, dealing with marginal ground support, weather, extremely distant alternates, MELs affecting performance and range ?
Pilots up North self dispatch, so they become quickly proficient at learning their A/C performance, weather pattern, as well as learning their own limitations, building their airsmanship ... or they quit because they can't hack it.

Oh lord how many times have I had one of you space cadets unable to handle a 15 kts x-wind coming in YEG from the North ? You think the time to learn those skills is when you have 78 paying customers in the back ?
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by daedalusx »

Oh here's another pearl of wisdom you might want to consider.

Hiring at Jazz is still done by pilots. HR have quite an active presence on these boards. You're going to tell the guy hiring you that he's a Stockholm syndrome victim and that his experience in Norman Wells means nothing compare to the hardship of being an immigrant, mortgaging your own house and working 2 jobs ? Good luck with that :bear:
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by ayseven »

He really should have got the point by now. Just hope he lets us know where he ends up if u know what i mean. He has a wee bit of a learning curve.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by C.W.E. »

When are you coming up this way again .?
I sold my motorhome a couple of years ago because I got fed up with driving long distances.

If I decided to fly up there I would have to decide if I want to fly on an airplane were one or maybe two of the pilots are the new generation of pay to get a job types...

.....so after thinking about it I don't like that choice....


....so that leaves either driving my car or taking the bus.

At least by taking a bus I am not risking the pay to get a driving job mindset. :mrgreen:

When are you coming south?
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by photofly »

DonutHole wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:08 am What you should be learning is that working up north flying in challenging vfr conditions, making the move to ifr on a small turbine and then moving to the airlines isn't 'suffering' it is learning your trade. I am not surprised to find entitled millenials love the idea of simply buying their way into a heavy. It isn't about "paying your dues" it is about learning how to make appropriate command decisions on your own in challenging circumstances and then translating that knowledge into the career in the airlines. Personally, If I could know which aircraft have these pay to play goofs at the helm I wouldn't get on.
How do European airlines, flag carriers for countries that don't have an "up north", do it? There are lots of cadet program pilots at Easyjet, Ryanair, et. al., not to mention British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM ... How do they maintain their safety records?

If you can't show a safety case, then it's just a morals thing.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by DonutHole »

photofly wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:24 pm
DonutHole wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:08 am What you should be learning is that working up north flying in challenging vfr conditions, making the move to ifr on a small turbine and then moving to the airlines isn't 'suffering' it is learning your trade. I am not surprised to find entitled millenials love the idea of simply buying their way into a heavy. It isn't about "paying your dues" it is about learning how to make appropriate command decisions on your own in challenging circumstances and then translating that knowledge into the career in the airlines. Personally, If I could know which aircraft have these pay to play goofs at the helm I wouldn't get on.
How do European airlines, flag carriers for countries that don't have an "up north", do it? There are lots of cadet program pilots at Easyjet, Ryanair, et. al., not to mention British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM ... How do they maintain their safety records?

If you can't show a safety case, then it's just a morals thing.
there is no data to support the case one way or another. Logically, a cadet program would work well as the MOST experienced captains pass on their knowledge in the time available to the first generation of cadets, we will need to wait a bit to see how well it works as the second generation of cadets, the ones with limited experience, teach the third generation of cadets.

Furthermore, I look at this type of thing as nepotism and elitism. You aren't guaranteed the best candidates, you are just guaranteed the best candidates out of the pool that can afford to pay.
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Last edited by DonutHole on Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zaibatsu
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by Zaibatsu »

daedalusx wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:11 pm Oh here's another pearl of wisdom you might want to consider.

Hiring at Jazz is still done by pilots. HR have quite an active presence on these boards. You're going to tell the guy hiring you that he's a Stockholm syndrome victim and that his experience in Norman Wells means nothing compare to the hardship of being an immigrant, mortgaging your own house and working 2 jobs ? Good luck with that :bear:
I think gaslighting is a better term.

I don’t think anyone said at the start of their career I want to work in Norman Wells.

But now it’s a badge of honor. Pilots who’ve gone through it are some kind of masochists and turn into sadists if someone else made it where they are without going through it.

And for every neophyte that maybe struggles with a crosswind but still gets people safely to their destinations, there’s still a bunch of bush league bullshit that’s damaged or destroyed equipment and left even very experienced pilots dead.
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Re: Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

Post by C.W.E. »

How do European airlines, flag carriers for countries that don't have an "up north", do it? There are lots of cadet program pilots at Easyjet, Ryanair, et. al., not to mention British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM
...

Yes that is the truth .
How do they maintain their safety records?
By spending a small fortune to get qualified to fly for an airline, when I was flying in Europe about fifteen years ago the cost to qualify for Ryanair was around 225,000 euro.

That is a lot of money.
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