Jazz to launch pay for type rating program

[DonutHole]

Who the hell is .?

My real name is . . and I have been posting on Avcanada since the forum first started.

By using my real name I feel it gives my opinions and advice about flying more credibility.

The only thing I"m learning here, is everyone has the @#$! you I suffered so you should as well mentality that's so common these days!

One thing about my flying career I sure never suffered either mentally or monetarily that is for sure.

In fact by the end of my over fifty years of flying for a living I was paid very well for my time, very well.

As an example I operated a business giving advanced flying instruction and my hourly rate was 250 Euro per flight hour.

When are you coming up this way again .?

[DonutHole]

. should not even interact with people so out of it.

I am optimistic ayseven, I still believe that ignorance can be cured through education.

Maybe vermont will learn through osmosis.

The only thing I"m learning here, is everyone has the @#$! you I suffered so you should as well mentality that's so common these days!

What you should be learning is that working up north flying in challenging vfr conditions, making the move to ifr on a small turbine and then moving to the airlines isn't 'suffering' it is learning your trade. I am not surprised to find entitled millenials love the idea of simply buying their way into a heavy. It isn't about "paying your dues" it is about learning how to make appropriate command decisions on your own in challenging circumstances and then translating that knowledge into the career in the airlines. Personally, If I could know which aircraft have these pay to play goofs at the helm I wouldn't get on.

[daedalusx]

Wait, so you don’t even have your CPL and you’re already speaking like you’ve got a job at Jazz? Oh boy..

For what it’s worth, the “college kids” with no experience up North weren’t really “welcomed” on the line when I was there. Perhaps things have changed since.

Entitled ? nonono he says he'll settle for a Q400 right after the ink dries on his CPL.

You know, as someone who was actually a taxi specialist at little red, the biggest sight of relief at check-in in the crew room after the usual meet and greet was "Oh yeah I was on the Twin/Kingair/PC12 at Borek, Perimeter, Tindi, Carson, Summit, Keewatin ..."
As a Capt you'd know that your fellow airman would be an actual force multiplier and you wouldn't have to spend the next couple of days babysitting.

As an FO you knew you were in good hands if you were flying with a young Borek Capt even if he hasn't had his first recurrent PPC, why ? Because it's impossible to have command time up north (or way down south in the case of my Borek friends) and not have made a command decision affecting the life of your passengers. You think a 3month type rating course can ever match 5-10 years of hard experience, dealing with marginal ground support, weather, extremely distant alternates, MELs affecting performance and range ?
Pilots up North self dispatch, so they become quickly proficient at learning their A/C performance, weather pattern, as well as learning their own limitations, building their airsmanship ... or they quit because they can't hack it.

Oh lord how many times have I had one of you space cadets unable to handle a 15 kts x-wind coming in YEG from the North ? You think the time to learn those skills is when you have 78 paying customers in the back ?

[daedalusx]

Oh here's another pearl of wisdom you might want to consider.

Hiring at Jazz is still done by pilots. HR have quite an active presence on these boards. You're going to tell the guy hiring you that he's a Stockholm syndrome victim and that his experience in Norman Wells means nothing compare to the hardship of being an immigrant, mortgaging your own house and working 2 jobs ? Good luck with that

[ayseven]

He really should have got the point by now. Just hope he lets us know where he ends up if u know what i mean. He has a wee bit of a learning curve.

[C.W.E.]

When are you coming up this way again .?

I sold my motorhome a couple of years ago because I got fed up with driving long distances.

If I decided to fly up there I would have to decide if I want to fly on an airplane were one or maybe two of the pilots are the new generation of pay to get a job types...

.....so after thinking about it I don't like that choice....


....so that leaves either driving my car or taking the bus.

At least by taking a bus I am not risking the pay to get a driving job mindset.

When are you coming south?

[photofly]

What you should be learning is that working up north flying in challenging vfr conditions, making the move to ifr on a small turbine and then moving to the airlines isn't 'suffering' it is learning your trade. I am not surprised to find entitled millenials love the idea of simply buying their way into a heavy. It isn't about "paying your dues" it is about learning how to make appropriate command decisions on your own in challenging circumstances and then translating that knowledge into the career in the airlines. Personally, If I could know which aircraft have these pay to play goofs at the helm I wouldn't get on.

How do European airlines, flag carriers for countries that don't have an "up north", do it? There are lots of cadet program pilots at Easyjet, Ryanair, et. al., not to mention British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM ... How do they maintain their safety records?

If you can't show a safety case, then it's just a morals thing.

[DonutHole]

What you should be learning is that working up north flying in challenging vfr conditions, making the move to ifr on a small turbine and then moving to the airlines isn't 'suffering' it is learning your trade. I am not surprised to find entitled millenials love the idea of simply buying their way into a heavy. It isn't about "paying your dues" it is about learning how to make appropriate command decisions on your own in challenging circumstances and then translating that knowledge into the career in the airlines. Personally, If I could know which aircraft have these pay to play goofs at the helm I wouldn't get on.

How do European airlines, flag carriers for countries that don't have an "up north", do it? There are lots of cadet program pilots at Easyjet, Ryanair, et. al., not to mention British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM ... How do they maintain their safety records?

If you can't show a safety case, then it's just a morals thing.

there is no data to support the case one way or another. Logically, a cadet program would work well as the MOST experienced captains pass on their knowledge in the time available to the first generation of cadets, we will need to wait a bit to see how well it works as the second generation of cadets, the ones with limited experience, teach the third generation of cadets.

Furthermore, I look at this type of thing as nepotism and elitism. You aren't guaranteed the best candidates, you are just guaranteed the best candidates out of the pool that can afford to pay.

[Zaibatsu]

Oh here's another pearl of wisdom you might want to consider.

Hiring at Jazz is still done by pilots. HR have quite an active presence on these boards. You're going to tell the guy hiring you that he's a Stockholm syndrome victim and that his experience in Norman Wells means nothing compare to the hardship of being an immigrant, mortgaging your own house and working 2 jobs ? Good luck with that

I think gaslighting is a better term.

I don’t think anyone said at the start of their career I want to work in Norman Wells.

But now it’s a badge of honor. Pilots who’ve gone through it are some kind of masochists and turn into sadists if someone else made it where they are without going through it.

And for every neophyte that maybe struggles with a crosswind but still gets people safely to their destinations, there’s still a bunch of bush league bullshit that’s damaged or destroyed equipment and left even very experienced pilots dead.

[C.W.E.]

How do European airlines, flag carriers for countries that don't have an "up north", do it? There are lots of cadet program pilots at Easyjet, Ryanair, et. al., not to mention British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, KLM

...

Yes that is the truth .

How do they maintain their safety records?

By spending a small fortune to get qualified to fly for an airline, when I was flying in Europe about fifteen years ago the cost to qualify for Ryanair was around 225,000 euro.

That is a lot of money.

[photofly]

Furthermore, I look at this type of thing as nepotism and elitism. You aren't guaranteed the best candidates, you are just guaranteed the best candidates out of the pool that can afford to pay.

I"m not sure you're guaranteed the best candidates the old fashioned way, either. I'm sure a lot of people who would turn out with fantastic hands and feet, and superb leadership and decision-making skills didn't want to spend a couple of years in the wilderness throwing bags.

That is to say, determination and stick-to-it-iveness probably counts for a lot, but I don't see an obvious correlation with pilot skill or safety.

The military has the most experience trying to predict who will make the best pilots; if that's the goal, an airline cadet scheme should probably have an entry test like the one you'd have to pass if you want to fly for the RCAF.

[ayseven]

It is a thing of knowing we did what we could to learn as much as we could. Those that don't, miss out for good or bad. I am not the best pilot, but i am a better one for having to gone into tiny strips and lakes, where a big runway three thousand miles long is not an option. Focuses the mind and its fun. If you don't think that's fun, i have nothing more to say. Would i do it again now, at the age i am now? No.

[vermont]

He really should have got the point by now. Just hope he lets us know where he ends up if u know what i mean. He has a wee bit of a learning curve.

You're basically hoping I crash to prove a point how fucked in the head do you have to be to think that?

I understand being in the north can help sharpen your skills but seeing as most of the world doesn't have an up north like we do and does fine with cadet programs it shows how full of shit you are

[ayseven]

Saying i hope you crash is out of line, buddy. Do you even understand what that means? I urge you to do something else with your hard earned.

The rest if the world does not have the option of going to small communities to fly and we are lucky.

[vermont]

Saying i hope you crash is out of line, buddy. Do you even understand what that means? I urge you to do something else with your hard earned.

The rest if the world does not have the option of going to small communities to fly and we are lucky.

Sounded a lot like you're wishing I'd end up in some sort of trouble.

[vermont]

I think we found the root cause of shitty pilot wages in Canada!

I get what he's saying, if you're chasing money more than happiness you'll likely be disappointed at least for the first several years

Wait, so you don’t even have your CPL and you’re already speaking like you’ve got a job at Jazz? Oh boy..

For what it’s worth, the “college kids” with no experience up North weren’t really “welcomed” on the line when I was there. Perhaps things have changed since.

I know people at all stages of the process, including those at jazz and big red.

I've talked to them all and seen how much time, money, and luck they've used to get where they are.

I didn't realize you needed to be a captain to see how long it takes to go from zero to getting your first/hundredth pay cheque

[2112]

Who cares, People are going to do what's best for them. When I got my CPL in 2008 ramping in the bush was the best option I had. I could sit here and pontificate about the amazing experience I gained from flying in the north but alas I'd be full of shit if I said that I wouldn't consider this program when I was a young single pup.

[skytramp2800]

Actually, they're not looking for pilots. For 125.000 THOUSAND Dollars! Yikes!! They are really looking for Flight Systems Managers.
As soon as you're all trained up, you will sit there, and monitor. You will start as an Assistant Flight Systems Manager, 10 to 15 years later, you will be promoted to Flight Systems Manager.
The road is a rough one. You will go on auto with the "gear up" call, this is one of the most important functions you will ever perform for the first 2 years, and course there is the "gear down " call too. You will also push the "Autopilot On" switch too, that's one of the shiney ones, with a light on it.
Every switch, every input, few as they will be, will be monitored back in office by the Chief Flight Systems Manager, or one of his subordinates. Every parameter, every busted A/S, ILS, Altitude will be on your record. Forever.

Messing with the hottie in the Port O'Call last night??

"Hi!! My name is Studly, I'm a Flight Systems Manager!! How do you like me so far??"

Hey, dude, that's the Chief Flight Systems Manager's Assistant, you were messing with, and she's pissed off, and she's going to pull the tapes, and...
Well, perhaps you should have got that job in YVQ after all.

Good luck buddies

[ayseven]

The grass is always greener on the other side of the ramp...

[vermont]

Actually, they're not looking for pilots. For 125.000 THOUSAND Dollars! Yikes!! They are really looking for Flight Systems Managers.
As soon as you're all trained up, you will sit there, and monitor. You will start as an Assistant Flight Systems Manager, 10 to 15 years later, you will be promoted to Flight Systems Manager.
The road is a rough one. You will go on auto with the "gear up" call, this is one of the most important functions you will ever perform for the first 2 years, and course there is the "gear down " call too. You will also push the "Autopilot On" switch too, that's one of the shiney ones, with a light on it.
Every switch, every input, few as they will be, will be monitored back in office by the Chief Flight Systems Manager, or one of his subordinates. Every parameter, every busted A/S, ILS, Altitude will be on your record. Forever.

Messing with the hottie in the Port O'Call last night??

"Hi!! My name is Studly, I'm a Flight Systems Manager!! How do you like me so far??"

Hey, dude, that's the Chief Flight Systems Manager's Assistant, you were messing with, and she's pissed off, and she's going to pull the tapes, and...
Well, perhaps you should have got that job in YVQ after all.

Good luck buddies

Its hilarious seeing the mental gymnastics everyone here is pulling trying to justify wasting years of their lives away from home, and even wishing that I'd crash or "report back I got into trouble"

[ayseven]

Absolutely at no point has anyone said they hoped you would crash or wish any ill will on you. We just are quite sure, based on what some of us have seen, that you have quite a bit of learning, and growing up to do. Will you eventually turn out to be a good pilot? No idea. But the proven path has worked in Canada for a long time, and now airlines, fir whatever reason, have chosen another way to get competent, safe people into their cockpits.

And as a further point that you very clearly do understand: your image as a person people want to work with might be, lets just say, tarnished, now that people know what you really think.

I don't know if you are just a wind up, a bot or whatever, but you do not impress any employer right now.

[vermont]

I am optimistic ayseven, I still believe that ignorance can be cured through education.

Maybe vermont will learn through osmosis.

The only thing I"m learning here, is everyone has the @#$! you I suffered so you should as well mentality that's so common these days!

What you should be learning is that working up north flying in challenging vfr conditions, making the move to ifr on a small turbine and then moving to the airlines isn't 'suffering' it is learning your trade. I am not surprised to find entitled millenials love the idea of simply buying their way into a heavy. It isn't about "paying your dues" it is about learning how to make appropriate command decisions on your own in challenging circumstances and then translating that knowledge into the career in the airlines. Personally, If I could know which aircraft have these pay to play goofs at the helm I wouldn't get on.

I guess all those idiots at easyjet or lufthansa are dangerous idiots right? Give me evidence of what you're saying or I'll gladly ignore it

[vermont]

Oh here's another pearl of wisdom you might want to consider.

Hiring at Jazz is still done by pilots. HR have quite an active presence on these boards. You're going to tell the guy hiring you that he's a Stockholm syndrome victim and that his experience in Norman Wells means nothing compare to the hardship of being an immigrant, mortgaging your own house and working 2 jobs ? Good luck with that

You literally are saying my wife will get raped or cheat on me while I'm gone. Watch what YOU'RE saying first

[vermont]

Absolutely at no point has anyone said they hoped you would crash or wish any ill will on you. We just are quite sure, based on what some of us have seen, that you have quite a bit of learning, and growing up to do. Will you eventually turn out to be a good pilot? No idea. But the proven path has worked in Canada for a long time, and now airlines, fir whatever reason, have chosen another way to get competent, safe people into their cockpits.

And as a further point that you very clearly do understand: your image as a person people want to work with might be, lets just say, tarnished, now that people know what you really think.

I don't know if you are just a wind up, a bot or whatever, but you do not impress any employer right now.

Seems the post has been edited now but you pretty much wished I'd report back in the future and said I got into trouble so your can be right about your assumptions.

No wonder nobody wants to go into this industry when others are wishing you crash or your wife leaves you. What a bunch of miserable fucks

[C.W.E.]

What a bunch of miserable fucks

There is your answer.

Find another career so you won't have to work with us.