Near collision at Brampton

[photofly]

Nothing to do with electrical failure. You're defending the right, apparently, to go NORDO anyplace, anytime, well, because it's my "right".

I'm defending everyone - you included - from calls for more rules and regulation. "That other guy is a terrible pilot. I don't like the way he flies! I demand the government makes rules to protect me from him!", you cry, with others. One day that other pilot will be you and someone will be trying to stop you from doing something you think you do in a safe a proper manner, but for some reason someone else now has a bee about trying to stop you. If you want to dress it up in the language of "my right", that's your call. It's not my choice of words. Nor is "anyplace, anytime". Once again if you want to put about things you'd like me to have written so you can argue against them, I can't stop you.

I'm also curious where this is, and where --today aa this magical towered airport where you can fly in, park in front of the tower, and go up and have a coffee with the boys, before departing.

I'm genuinely curious where in Canada that exists today. Maybe I'll try that at YTZ next time.

I've visited FSS and towers all over Canada - as I'm sure you have. Usually you do park in front of the tower. YTZ tower is also amenable to tower visits on most days. GIve it a go - they're all quite lovely.

[photofly]

“Couple that with the hassle factor of looking up the phone number and or trying to dial, while flying, in the already uncertain situation of not being able to raise anyone on the radio”

Agreed. So much easier to deal with the opposite end landing and runway excursion

Do you really think a student who can't manage to tune the right frequency on the radio fixed to the panel in front of them and connected to the headphones they're wearing is actually capable of looking up a phone number to call the tower at Pearson on the phone to ask what runway is in use at an uncontrolled airport twenty five miles away?

[rookiepilot]

Not more regulation.....simply better airmanship...possibly known as simple courtesy that enhances safety....

[JasonE]

I fly NORDO on a regular basis, and there is no way I'd even consider going into Brampton that way.

[Inverted2]

If flying in Brampton is like driving in Brampton....

[digits_]

It seems to me that both sides of the NORDO argument are arguing about different situations. You seem to be answering different questions:

1) Is operating NORDO in Brampton a good idea?
Given the amount of traffic, probably not.
2) Does this mean operating NORDO should be prohibited everywhere in Canada?
No, not at all.
3) Is the NORDO discussion relevant to this incident?
I'd say it is. The student might have had a radio on board, but he was unable to operate it, and was operating as if he was NORDO. The FI in the the plane on the take off roll did not see the student airplane in a timely fashion. If the student plane was operating NORDO, the FI wouldn't have heard the plane on the radio either. I think this is a valid example of 1): NORDO in Brampton is not always a good idea.

[photofly]

Happily for people who enjoy this thread, I don’t agree: operating NORDO means joining in with the traffic flow and making a safe circuit. This student didn’t have radio communications but didn’t use any procedure that NORDO traffic should. Calling what this student did “NORDO” unfairly associates landing the wrong way with all aircraft that fly without radios.

I don’t think it informs us as to whether NORDO at Brampton is a good or a bad idea: it does inform us that landing opposite to the direction of traffic already established in the circuit is a bad idea. But that isn’t “NORDO”, not is it surprising.

This is a lesson about training students better, not about NORDO.

[ahramin]

Everyone needs a 406 and a radio. Please put me out of work.

Uh, I thought your job was to come rescue me after an engine failure puts me down in an inhospitable area. Are you saying that if I have a 406 and a radio, you won't come get me? Or that my engine won't fail if I have them?

[goldeneagle]

Yeah....where?

Let me get this straight, your're advocating this should be the practice at Brampton? That's the thread here -- about Brampton, one of the busiest uncontrolled airports in the country.

Have you been to Brampton on a sunny Saturday with the pattern jammed full of low time students?

I've seen guys like you in the pattern, who think they own the airport, who cut off slower planes on base, disregard the traffic pattern 6 other planes are following, neither place nor respond to any radio calls.

Clearly affirms the view degrees certainly don't translate into common sense.

Actually, if you go back and read, you will notice the comment I was responding to was somebody suggesting, almost to the point of demanding, NORDO should be prohibited by regulation. My response had nothing to do with Brampton, and, in fact NORDO is irrelavent to the point of this particular incident as both airplanes were indeed equipped with radios. The incident came about because somebody had finger trouble with the radio, then ended up in the circuit going wrong way against traffic.

As for the rant about me in the pattern, I have no idea where that drivel comes from.

The degree rant, ya, we see you typing that here quite regularly. I think most of us have learned to ignore it, just more rambling from somebody that either didn't bother, or more likely, didn't make the cut.

[SAR_YQQ]

Are you saying that if I have a 406 and a radio, you won't come get me?

Nope - not saying that. What I’m saying is for everyone to embrace technology to help eliminate the “Search” out of SAR.

[yeah yeah]

“Couple that with the hassle factor of looking up the phone number and or trying to dial, while flying, in the already uncertain situation of not being able to raise anyone on the radio”

Agreed. So much easier to deal with the opposite end landing and runway excursion

Do you really think a student who can't manage to tune the right frequency on the radio fixed to the panel in front of them and connected to the headphones they're wearing is actually capable of looking up a phone number to call the tower at Pearson on the phone to ask what runway is in use at an uncontrolled airport twenty five miles away?

Why phone them? Call the ACC. They are working the airspace a couple hundred feet above circuit altitude. You’d be surprised how easy it is to get help.

[photofly]

I’m sorry - I misunderstood your earlier post: when you suggested phoning YYZ ATC I thought you meant the tower (I wouldn’t have referred to the ACC as “YYZ”). There are lots of people that you could call, but I challenge any student pilot to look up the ACC phone number in the relevant publication, while flying. And frankly if a student has been trained to do that they are probably also prepared to land the right way without a radio.

Better, they should call Satellites West on the radio (119.3 isn’t it? I don’t fly that way often) or Satellites east (133.4) or Hamilton, or better yet London Radio on any number of frequencies including 126.7, or even try 121.5 and see who answers. Good preparation for a cross country would involve checking a student has those sorts of frequencies in memory or written on their flight log, just in case.

And no, I’m not at all surprised how easy it is to get help. The whole system is set up to provide it.

However, in this case I think the whole phone thing is a big red herring. the student may have thought they were doing the right thing and were managing well without the radio. They just did it wrong. Once again, this is not about NORDO.

[iflyforpie]

Are you saying that if I have a 406 and a radio, you won't come get me?

Nope - not saying that. What I’m saying is for everyone to embrace technology to help eliminate the “Search” out of SAR.

What good is a 406 if it is based on the same fail-deadly premise as the 121.5 ELT with the same G switch that doesn’t activate in a lot of cases?

Fail-safe like a satellite tracker is a lot better IMHO. It led rescuers right to a crash site in Kootenay National Park a few years ago.. where the pilot was unfortunately deceased but his dog was found and saved.

[northernpilot2]

The attitude is clear, and I've seen it myself in the pattern encountering the odd pilot:

"I'll do whatever I want, due to some superiority complex, and to heck with anyone else".

Once there was a guy in his private 152 who was at my 6' o clock position that had me in sight in front of him. We were travelling in the same direction. He was telling me I don't know how to look out for traffic and I need to be careful.

[jakeandelwood]

Maybe this should be one of the numerous ads on this forum, yeah they are that cheap. It even comes with a headset jack and a power cord to plug into one of those $75 Canadian Tire booster packs if plane doesn't have an electrical system. I can't even believe someone would even want to fly NORDO.

[goingnowherefast]

If I'm flying from Middleo-Nowhere SK to Lonepine-Tree MB in my J3 on floats, I'm not too worried about traffic and NORDO is pretty safe. That radio in the "ad" above would cost more than the Avgas for the whole trip.

If I'm flying Burlington to Brampton, NORDO is dangerious. I'll have a proper headset plugged into a good quality radio installed in the panel. I'd require a transponder and consider a simple traffic display (poor man's TCAS 1) if I'm going to be flying in that area regularly.

Now if I have an electrical system fault that kills all radios, I'd follow NORDO procedures as precise as possible. That's pretty difficult if there's no wind and the plane departing doesn't start moving from the tie-downs until I'm on base.

[photofly]

That's pretty difficult if there's no wind and the plane departing doesn't start moving from the tie-downs until I'm on base.

Remember traffic on the ground has to give way to traffic in the air. In this case the other traffic was already in the circuit conducting touch-and-gos, but in your scenario if they're starting on a tie down, they have to give way to you.