Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

[digits_]

Given the high costs of commercial pilot training, it should be treated like post secondary education in this country - largely government subsidized at accredited schools. Med school, dental school, engineering school, trades school are all publicly funded to roughly 85% of their costs from the government - that is one of the reasons, and a good reason, why we pay high taxes in this country. Flying training, with caveats and controls, should be similarly subsidized but only for professional programs, i.e. not for private licenses, etc.

None should be subsidized. No one subsidized the start up of my business, nor did I look for any. Why should the taxpayer subsidize anyone else's career is beyond me.

All of this subsidizing has done is drive up the cost of post secondary education, and drive the quality down.

The idea would be that your business would have access to cheaper doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists etc. It is a system that works pretty good in Europe. But I'm sure you know that.

[Capt. Underpants]

None should be subsidized. No one subsidized the start up of my business, nor did I look for any. Why should the taxpayer subsidize anyone else's career is beyond me.

I'm reminded of a certain Roger Waters lyric.

[L39Guy]

Given the high costs of commercial pilot training, it should be treated like post secondary education in this country - largely government subsidized at accredited schools. Med school, dental school, engineering school, trades school are all publicly funded to roughly 85% of their costs from the government - that is one of the reasons, and a good reason, why we pay high taxes in this country. Flying training, with caveats and controls, should be similarly subsidized but only for professional programs, i.e. not for private licenses, etc.

None should be subsidized. No one subsidized the start up of my business, nor did I look for any. Why should the taxpayer subsidize anyone else's career is beyond me.

All of this subsidizing has done is drive up the cost of post secondary education, and drive the quality down.

It's created an arms race, where employers practically want an MBA for entry level banking positions.

Debt of all kinds, including student debt, results in servitude. More young people should "just say no".

I have news for you. The taxpayers of this country already subsidize education. In the province where I live, the government contributes 85% of the cost of post secondary education, the student pays a mere 15% of the cost. Personally, I think that is a good thing and am glad that my tax dollar is used for that purpose. It allows one to pursue an education based upon merit not social class, unlike other western countries where talented, less privileged students cannot move up the social ladder but instead those kids with rich mommies and daddies can. Finances should not be a barrier to advanced education.

A friend of mine's son could not get into a Canadian med school; instead he is going to med school in Ireland. The cost of the 4 year program: $270K Cdn in tuition fees. That reflects the true cost of the education. The same four year program at my alma mater is ~50K in tuition.

Subsidizing education is not the same as subsidizing a business; the government has no business in business but it has every business in being in the business of advancing education, pre and post secondary. In other words, investing in human capital. Using your logic, government shouldn't pay for grades 1-12 either.

An advanced aviation education (look at a private license being a secondary education and commercial, IFR, etc being a post-secondary education) is a good investment in human resources not unlike investing in doctors, nurses, engineers, plumbers, etc as we do already at trade schools and universities. We need an education workforce, we need professional pilots; why should prospective, professional pilot's education not be subsidized by the taxpayer the way other profession's education is too?

[C-GGGQ]

I think he's saying that we've quickly come to the point where "when everyone has a degree, no one has a degree" most jobs do not require a degree. They require specific training. Even when you think of doctors and lawyers. While their specific training is in the form of a degree it could easily just be called a license. A bachelor's degree has been so devalued that it is virtually useless other than "everyone else has one so I need one too"

[rookiepilot]

I think he's saying that we've quickly come to the point where "when everyone has a degree, no one has a degree" most jobs do not require a degree. They require specific training. Even when you think of doctors and lawyers. While their specific training is in the form of a degree it could easily just be called a license. A bachelor's degree has been so devalued that it is virtually useless other than "everyone else has one so I need one too"

Someone who gets it.

Never mind the degradation in the quality of education that subsidies create, along with outright scams.


We simply can't afford to take this to it's logical extension, and have unlimited numbers of career students.

I'm sure the ivory tower club disagrees ----

[DanWEC]

L39, That's a good argument. As a pretty obvious democrat, I also believe strongly in well funded education as a foundation. (Even though private Universities have driven up the cost of Post Secondary Education.) However none of the industries you listed have a self imposed shortage and wage depression derived from the previous exploitation of an excess of labour. Also, aviation in Canada is unique when it comes to the extremely limited employment options at the airline level. A doctor, nurse, engineer, sparky or plumber can work anywhere, or be self employed.

[fish4life]

Rookie do you have any post secondary?

[rookiepilot]

Rookie do you have any post secondary?

Yes, I do.

I dropped out partway through a business degree. Was fully supporting myself and ran out of money to do that and attend school. So I started my first business along with working.

While in school I was the # 1 student in my class in economics and accounting, and tutored 3 other students. 2 happened to be rather attractive fellow students of the female persuasion. My final mark in both courses in year 1 was above 97%. Whatever. It wasn't hard.

My economics prof, who I had many great conversations with, was disappointed I needed to drop out. But I like eating more, that's what happens when you're on your own at 18.

My turn.

How exactly would a BA , for example, help me be a safer, more professional pilot at AC?

[JasonE]

I guess we know where the 10% luxury tax is going now!

Still not a pilot shortage, but pay shortage. I'd go get my commercial license if it paid well enough, but I couldn't afford to live on the entry level wages.

[fish4life]

Your degree you were taking was subsidized by the government, so in a way everything you learnt until you had to drop out indirectly subsidized your business.

This isn’t an argument about if a degree helps a pilot be a pilot but more one of whether the training to be a pilot should be subsidized.

[rookiepilot]

Your degree you were taking was subsidized by the government, so in a way everything you learnt until you had to drop out indirectly subsidized your business.

This isn’t an argument about if a degree helps a pilot be a pilot but more one of whether the training to be a pilot should be subsidized.

It becomes an arms race, overall. Why should AC require a degree on top of the pilot qualifications? Because everyone wants a degree for anything. It's pure prestige reasons.
They know the subsidies mean they can demand a degree.

Underprice anything and insatiable demand results. Look at our ER rooms. Half the people clogging up the waiting room, have the sniffles. Heck, order more tests. It's "free".

Look at the US and the mess they are in. Same reasons as the housing crisis.

Too many cheap loans.

Companies should instead raise wages, to attract new entrants, which will make training costs viable. Same for other career choices. Serious candidates will make it work.

Subsidized education encourages far too many tourists, who try out one degree after another, on the taxpayer dime. So many kids do this, try things and then change their major.

[fish4life]

The degree is already subsidized though

[rookiepilot]

The degree is already subsidized though

So the government goes ahead and -- for argument's sake -- fully subsidizes pilot training. 100%.

Mom and Dad say to Johnny, "go try out that pilot thing". "That's a respectable career".

Will the quality of the average FO coming on the line, get better or worse?

[Squaretail]

Subsidized education encourages far too many tourists, who try out one degree after another, on the taxpayer dime. So many kids do this, try things and then change their major.

Do you have anything concrete to back up the "tourist" theory? You bring it up consistently, yet I've known no one ever who would fit this description. I think you overrate how much people like being students or being in school. The few people I know with multiple degrees, are incredibly successful and self funded their education. While I don't doubt these "tourists" exist, I'm doubting that they present a significant drain.

[fish4life]

The degree is already subsidized though

So the government goes ahead and -- for argument's sake -- fully subsidizes pilot training. 100%.

Mom and Dad say to Johnny, "go try out that pilot thing". "That's a respectable career".

Will the quality of the average FO coming on the line, get better or worse?

if you have a limited number of spots and only accept the best not just the people who can afford it then yes the quality should go up. Medicine as an example

[ayseven]

If you cannot get highly experienced people, you need people who can learn anything you throw at them. University gives you that ability. Of course there are rare exceptions. It gives them a more polished person, who should be able to adapt to anything.
I don't remember more than two or three people at university who were there to fool around. They don't usually last. Nowadays, with the costs, i would doubt there are more

[jakeandelwood]

I think he's saying that we've quickly come to the point where "when everyone has a degree, no one has a degree" most jobs do not require a degree. They require specific training. Even when you think of doctors and lawyers. While their specific training is in the form of a degree it could easily just be called a license. A bachelor's degree has been so devalued that it is virtually useless other than "everyone else has one so I need one too"

Someone who gets it.

Never mind the degradation in the quality of education that subsidies create, along with outright scams.


We simply can't afford to take this to it's logical extension, and have unlimited numbers of career students.

I'm sure the ivory tower club disagrees ----

Yup, another issue with free or subsidized post secondary education is you end up with a society full of doctors, dentists, and lawyers and no one to pick up your garbage at the curb, but a plus to that is your garbage man is now "in demand" so he gets paid more and can make a reasonbly good living at it.

[C-GGGQ]

No you end up with a society full of BBA or MBA garbage men because "every other candidate has a BBA"

[photofly]

Underprice anything and insatiable demand results. Look at our ER rooms. Half the people clogging up the waiting room, have the sniffles.

And you know this because ... aside from being an expert on higher education, economics and investments you're now also an expert in healthcare???

Make people wait in the snow, I say. If they don't like it and go home, they obviously weren't sick. If they die of exposure well that's money saved on treating them.

Heck, order more tests. It's "free".

We should have an American healthcare system, where nobody can afford anything and people lose their houses because they get sick?

[L39Guy]

There is no downside to having an (over) educated and enlightened society. Yes, a lot of people do not get an education that is directly applicable to their jobs - universities are particularly good as this as opposed to trade schools - however educated people tend to make better decisions as they tend to make decisions based upon knowledge. Scores of studies prove that individual health is directly related to education levels as an example.

While Rookie cannot see the virtue of his economics education as being a better airline pilot, it is true that an economics degree will not help him fly a better ILS. But what it will do, on average, is make him or her trainable to to fly different aircraft types, in different environments, better decision making, etc. A higher education may not provide direct, flying skills but it teaches one to learn which is a career long exercise as a professional pilot.

WRT to health care and at the risk of thread drift, Canada could have a US style health care system with no 6 months wait for hip replacements, etc. But that takes money and people are not prepared to pay more than they do already. The US system costs them twice the percentage of GDP as our system and they do have short wait times but by most other metrics theirs is inferior, life span, infant mortality, etc.