Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Capt. Underpants
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 am

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by Capt. Underpants »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:58 pm
Never mind the degradation in the quality of education that subsidies create ...
Where's your source for this ridiculous claim?
---------- ADS -----------
 
goldeneagle
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1177
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by goldeneagle »

rookiepilot wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:35 pm Will the quality of the average FO coming on the line, get better or worse? :shock:
It'll probably get a lot better, just look at existing examples. Current non-subsidized training any school will take you as a candidate, and even a weak candidate will continue with training until they make a barely passed mark on a test, or they run out of money, which ever happens first.

Now look at the example already in place for a fully subsidized candidate going from zero hours to left seat of a heavy 4 engine jet entirely on the taxpayer subsidized nickel. That example already exists in the form of the Canadian Armed Forces. Ask any airline recruiter what happens to an application from somebody that learned to fly on that subsidized program ? That's right, it goes top of the pile, and, at most places, it's a special pile as well. BUT, that program has very strict entrance requirements, and once one is accepted, there are very specific performance requirements for training to continue. It's kinda like med school, also highly subsidized. The entrance requirements totally prevent the 'tourist' you suggest is common. And once into med school, every round of exams is 'up or out'.

There is yet another path for learning to fly via a fully subsidized path. I've done lots of initial PPC candidates over the 40 years I was in a position to do that, and from the whole lot, two stand out as the absolute best candidates I had ever worked with. Both of them were flight instructors at the time and moving into charter work for the first time. The path they took to pilots licensing was thru the Air Cadets. Imagine that, another subsidized path to a pilot license.

I'd go so far as to say, a subsidized program with strict entrance requirements and strict progression requirements would produce candidates far superior to what the current system produces.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Zaibatsu
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by Zaibatsu »

rookie is living in his own reality distortion field. I didn’t need to go to school to be successful, therefore nobody else should. I don’t want to subsidize other people’s success because nobody subsidized mine.

Who could be an education tourist? Even if it was free, who has the time and energy? Who wants to go to a hospital just for fun? Most people avoid it at all costs. It’s like the mythological welfare queens. Trust me if accumulation of wealth was based on work, the single mother of three who got into a bad situation and is raising kids and going to school would be a billionaire, and the trust fund baby moving piles of money from one column to another while doing or creating absolutely nothing would starve to death.

All forms of education are subsidized one way or another. And your successful business is based in a nation who’s economy is fuelled by record public debt.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by rookiepilot »

Epic trolling to my commentary challenging the notion of unlimited freebies. Shouldn't be that surprised.

We will end up with this:

https://www.ft.com/content/16546c24-323 ... a0cae3f0de

Then who pays? Tell me how the math works.

Are you well paid captains ready for 75% top tax rates?

Don't you bitch after the commentary here. Free isn't "free".

And BTW I never said I supported US style health care, don't know how that got in there.

And -- as far as quality -- I never referred to the military. I have tremendous respect for the military's caliber of training.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mel gibson
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:21 pm

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by mel gibson »

The population is getting older and people are
having less children. Less people for all career paths.
Young people seem to like computer jobs. It is not fair to say they are lazy. As far as weak candidates, maybe?

Air Cadets is a great program and should be expanded.
But, I heard last year that due to lack of flight instructors , the amount of Private Pilot scholarships was severely cut.
Bit of a pickle right now.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by rookiepilot »

mel gibson wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:16 pm The population is getting older and people are
having less children.
Heart of the issue, right here. Massive structural changes will need to be made. But folks won't like it much.........see FT article......

We cannot afford the structure we have now. End of story.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ayseven
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 609
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:17 am

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by ayseven »

Mr Rookie,
You are wrong on facts. Just as an example, 75% tax rate would never apply to those making less than millions. Second, You are assuming that because the government spends, people get taxed more. This fallacy is because conservative "thinkers" believe the system is a zero sum game, which it isn't - what goes into someone else's mouth does NOT come out of yours. You will find different "opinions" on this subject, but there are a lot of fallacies out there.

We CAN afford to have these things. Every time the government pays part of a student's way through higher learning, they get a pay back in a better, higher paying job they student gets. Even if tax RATES stay exactly the same, the government will get more money from that person, as his salary increases. I know it is frustrating to see what is going on, and we are all looking for solutions to these "problems", but you are trying to talk economics through your hat, I am afraid. I do not have an easy solution to any of this, but when the government subsidises education, it is never a bad thing. Never.

Now, does this make better pilots? Should universities and colleges be set up to rely on foreign students' massive fees? I do not know. Being a pilot is not rocket science, but airlines think higher education is important, for their own reasons.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rxl
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 691
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:17 am
Location: Terminal 4

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by rxl »

I think that so-called "education tourists" actually help to subsidize Canadian students ...
have a look at this table - https://www.univcan.ca/universities/fac ... niversity/

An educated world is a better world.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by rookiepilot »

I sense the crowd here would agree with some of the elitist leadership, who would restrict voting privileges to those graduates of approved left wing indoctrination schools of higher thought and -- what was that word -- enlightenment?

True story -- that -- some are advocating.

Sound good all? You'd be in line with another nation, oh about a century ago....

Universities today (too often ) do not teach one how to "learn". They indoctrinate, comrade.....
---------- ADS -----------
 
rigpiggy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2858
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:17 pm
Location: west to east and west again

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by rigpiggy »

Sorry guys i have to call B@llocks. I have flown with many degreed, credentialed wunderkind who couldn't fly straight and level without a flight director. One guy had engineering degree, and flight college(seneca) who would rock me to sleep. He also couldn't take criticism, direction, or technical training(not that i am much better). But a degree, and another language make such a difference to the hr mavens.
---------- ADS -----------
 
vermont
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:49 pm

Re: Possible Government assistance for training pilots.....given to the airlines?!

Post by vermont »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:46 pm I disagree that the reason for the situation was simply airline greed. First of all, airlines don't much care which pilots get which percentage of the payroll. They go to the table with an amount of money they're willing to spend and it gets divided up by both the Union and management. Union leaders don't tend to care about newbies when they're building the pay scale. "I paid my dues, so can they". And for what it's worth, most managers paid those dues too. So, as their peers, we're as much to blame as the companies are for the state of WAWCON for new pilots.

Also, no one could have envisioned our young people being reluctant to make the kind of sacrifices most of us old timers had to make to succeed in this business. That's a cultural change that was caused by many factors, and it's not just affecting aviation. Medicine is also facing a shortage of young doctors for the same reasons.
I could totally be wrong about it, but I feel that the sacrifies are a lot higher these days. Everyone working for AC or WS has to live in one of a few cities, where the house prices went from ~150k 30 years ago to $1 million. Hobbs time cost also is significantly higher these days. No clue what instructor pay was 30 years ago though!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”