King of the Hill

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JeppsOnFire
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King of the Hill

Post by JeppsOnFire »

Just reading through the AC pay thread, more specifically the derailed posts regarding Corporate pay and thought I’d add something in a new topic.
I think most people would agree that widebody Capt at AC is king of the hill in Canadian aviation. Respect, pay and schedule among other things. Dream job.
However, all things considered, it might not be the choice someone makes even if it is available to them. ‘How is this?!’ you say. Well this was my experience and I can explain this terrible decision.
There are reasons I made the goal corporate aviation. Namely the most obvious one: family. Many people know the sacrifice to move to an airline job for the pilot; low pay, reserve/scheduling or relocating/commuting. They say this is only short term but in many cases, even when the real bank starts coming in these folks are in suffocating debt and it takes several years to recover, never mind start saving it. The hardship for taking the most undesirable shifts is not to be underestimated. Along with forfeiting valuable time/money for commuting. Compound this with the need for overtime pay. And crash pads - grown adults sleeping in crash pads. Sounds tough. Also, relocating (expensive and many already purchased their homes by the time airlines call) and abandoning family (read: free childcare from the grandparents) may not be a good option. That’s just for the pilot.
Most forget to mention the hardship experienced by the pilots partner. Taking an airline job often precludes the option of the partner working even though the income is desperately needed - if there are kids in the picture. I know the cost of childcare vs employment income dilemma. Accounting for time, costs of driving and the childcare itself, the partner really needs to be well employed to make it worth it. Just asking the partner to forfeit or pause a career they really want or enjoy so the pilot can pursue their dream can be an unpleasant reality. Just take some time reading through the Pilot Wives Facebook pages out there for example. Their struggle is real.
All that to say, even though I will never touch the kind of money a widebody capt at AC makes - it’s not all bad news. Corporate aviation pays well and you start 5-10 years sooner packing cash into investments. This is a big deal. The last decade has provided many returns of nearly 20%. I won’t ever make $300k a year but I’m not yet 40 and I have a paid for home and enough investments to make me a net worth millionaire. If I can maintain this course (probably unlikely I know) I would retire at 65 with a great pension and several million dollars.
So even though I would love to trade jobs when the kids are grown and gone, the years in between are too important and I’m ok with missing out. Although, I bet some widebody folks wouldn’t mind trading airplanes with me for a day either...
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tailgunner
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by tailgunner »

Jepps,
Corporate is great, until it isn’t. A simple change in managers can equate to drastic change in ones work environment. A decision by the CFO on a Monday can have you looking for work on Tuesday. A new position usually means starting at the bottom again. I’m glad it’s working out for you, wish you all the best, but I have seen it (corporate) turn quickly. Did it for years...
Cheers
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by JeppsOnFire »

tailgunner wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:21 pm
Jepps,
Corporate is great, until it isn’t. A simple change in managers can equate to drastic change in ones work environment. A decision by the CFO on a Monday can have you looking for work on Tuesday. A new position usually means starting at the bottom again. I’m glad it’s working out for you, wish you all the best, but I have seen it (corporate) turn quickly. Did it for years...
Cheers
Agreed. Good point. I did forget to mention job security. Although airlines have failed/furloughed/merged as well, however that risk is much lower.
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rudder
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by rudder »

King of the hill? The average NB CA in the US makes just under C$400k. The ones doing overtime are making C$500k. Just imagine what the WB CA are making.
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ShamrockPilot
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by ShamrockPilot »

rudder wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:31 pm
King of the hill? The average NB CA in the US makes just under C$400k. The ones doing overtime are making C$500k. Just imagine what the WB CA are making.
He said the Canadian hill, which obviously pales in comparison to the US hill
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Inverted2
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by Inverted2 »

ShamrockPilot wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:34 am
rudder wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:31 pm
King of the hill? The average NB CA in the US makes just under C$400k. The ones doing overtime are making C$500k. Just imagine what the WB CA are making.
He said the Canadian hill, which obviously pales in comparison to the US hill
Canadian crater or pit? :lol:
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Airline schedule can’t be beat in my opinion. I hated corporate. I’ll never go back. Being married to a cell phone and having no job security or pension is awful.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by JeppsOnFire »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 am
Airline schedule can’t be beat in my opinion. I hated corporate. I’ll never go back. Being married to a cell phone and having no job security or pension is awful.
I understand and respect that. Each job varies of course but the schedule we’re on would be hard to beat, even at the airlines. And the ‘attached to a cell phone’ thing - I don’t get that. EVERYONE is married to their cell phone. You ever see people in public. Heads down thumbs out.

Corporate often has pension or RRSP matching which is not DB but if you have some financial acumen you can do very well, even beat DB. Stock options are also a nice perk.

Job security is definitely a drawback. But I could lose my medical tomorrow too. Life’s a crapshoot. We make our decisions then justify the hell out of them, I mean live with them, right!
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mbav8r
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by mbav8r »

JeppsOnFire wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:29 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 am
Airline schedule can’t be beat in my opinion. I hated corporate. I’ll never go back. Being married to a cell phone and having no job security or pension is awful.
I understand and respect that. Each job varies of course but the schedule we’re on would be hard to beat, even at the airlines. And the ‘attached to a cell phone’ thing - I don’t get that. EVERYONE is married to their cell phone. You ever see people in public. Heads down thumbs out.

Corporate often has pension or RRSP matching which is not DB but if you have some financial acumen you can do very well, even beat DB. Stock options are also a nice perk.

Job security is definitely a drawback. But I could lose my medical tomorrow too. Life’s a crapshoot. We make our decisions then justify the hell out of them, I mean live with them, right!
While I can see the attraction to certain corporate gigs, there are plenty of drawbacks.
The married to the cell phone comment, I believe was to do with being on call 24/7. I once had an offer of a fast track left seat on a citation X, when I asked about the schedule, the reply was you’ll probably fly 15 days per month. I responded with, “ the rest are off?” His response,”, No, you’ll be on call 27 days per month. I thanked him for his time and went a different direction.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

JeppsOnFire wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:29 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 am
Airline schedule can’t be beat in my opinion. I hated corporate. I’ll never go back. Being married to a cell phone and having no job security or pension is awful.
I understand and respect that. Each job varies of course but the schedule we’re on would be hard to beat, even at the airlines. And the ‘attached to a cell phone’ thing - I don’t get that. EVERYONE is married to their cell phone. You ever see people in public. Heads down thumbs out.

Corporate often has pension or RRSP matching which is not DB but if you have some financial acumen you can do very well, even beat DB. Stock options are also a nice perk.

Job security is definitely a drawback. But I could lose my medical tomorrow too. Life’s a crapshoot. We make our decisions then justify the hell out of them, I mean live with them, right!
The benefits that a union provide are super nice to have too. If I lose my medical tomorrow, I have insurance for that.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by JeppsOnFire »

We have every kind of insurance as well, paid for by the company.
We have an outrageous amount of time off so when the rare call out comes we’re generally happy to go.

I know posting this in the Air Canada forum is not going to attract many sympathizers to the non-airline life and I have eyes to see you have a fantastic job.

My point with all this is not ‘mines better’, it’s that for those who either don’t make the cut for AC or couldn’t afford to make the jump to airlines or simply hate shuttle busses, corporate flying can provide a very good life, lifestyle and compensation. I often lie to some of my friends about what I do for my job because it’s that good and I don’t want to make them hate me for it :)
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by The Raven »

JeppsOnFire wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:29 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 am
Airline schedule can’t be beat in my opinion. I hated corporate. I’ll never go back. Being married to a cell phone and having no job security or pension is awful.
I understand and respect that. Each job varies of course but the schedule we’re on would be hard to beat, even at the airlines. And the ‘attached to a cell phone’ thing - I don’t get that. EVERYONE is married to their cell phone. You ever see people in public. Heads down thumbs out.

Corporate often has pension or RRSP matching which is not DB but if you have some financial acumen you can do very well, even beat DB. Stock options are also a nice perk.

Job security is definitely a drawback. But I could lose my medical tomorrow too. Life’s a crapshoot. We make our decisions then justify the hell out of them, I mean live with them, right!
Give your head a shake if you think you can beat a DB pension plan.
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by CL-Skadoo! »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 am
Airline schedule can’t be beat in my opinion. I hated corporate. I’ll never go back. Being married to a cell phone and having no job security or pension is awful.
There are corporate 604 (private op) jobs with set schedules, pretty nice ones with pension too.
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digits_
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by digits_ »

JeppsOnFire wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:29 pm
And the ‘attached to a cell phone’ thing - I don’t get that. EVERYONE is married to their cell phone. You ever see people in public. Heads down thumbs out.
There is a big difference between using a cellphone when you want to, or having to leave it on 24/7, including when you're asleep.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by JeppsOnFire »

The Raven wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:14 am
JeppsOnFire wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:29 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:02 am
Airline schedule can’t be beat in my opinion. I hated corporate. I’ll never go back. Being married to a cell phone and having no job security or pension is awful.
I understand and respect that. Each job varies of course but the schedule we’re on would be hard to beat, even at the airlines. And the ‘attached to a cell phone’ thing - I don’t get that. EVERYONE is married to their cell phone. You ever see people in public. Heads down thumbs out.

Corporate often has pension or RRSP matching which is not DB but if you have some financial acumen you can do very well, even beat DB. Stock options are also a nice perk.

Job security is definitely a drawback. But I could lose my medical tomorrow too. Life’s a crapshoot. We make our decisions then justify the hell out of them, I mean live with them, right!
Give your head a shake if you think you can beat a DB pension plan.
So I shook it. This fell out:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... icle+Links

With the last 10 year bull market some of these DC plans’ (or self directed retirement funds) projected retirement values are incredible.

It’s complicated and without getting the blue gloves out: with DB when you die your money dies with you (with the exception of survivor benefits). Your kids or grandkids or alma mater won’t get anything after you’re gone. Maybe you don’t mind. DB is amazing if you live long. If you die young it’s not so good.
FWIW I have DB and I am not putting all my eggs in that basket since I have no control over the fund.
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rudder
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by rudder »

Just imagine what a DL pilot year end pay will look like this year.....

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/20/success/ ... index.html
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by trey kule »

Jepps posted:
I did forget to mention job security. Although airlines have failed/furloughed/merged as well, however that risk is much lower.
Really?

With the clarity of today, do you still think the risk is lower?

I heard a rumour (without Any evidence) , that over 30% of the airline pilots in the world today, will go into a different career. If nothing, it should make some think a bit.
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sanjet
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by sanjet »

trey kule wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Jepps posted:
I did forget to mention job security. Although airlines have failed/furloughed/merged as well, however that risk is much lower.
Really?

With the clarity of today, do you still think the risk is lower?

I heard a rumour (without Any evidence) , that over 30% of the airline pilots in the world today, will go into a different career. If nothing, it should make some think a bit.
I have always decided to have a different investment in something that is completely different from aviation. This should be a wake up call to a lot of us.

I still cannot comprehend pilots that buy shares in the company they work for. You will need that cash in times like these. Been a #1 rule to never invest in your own airline, even with share discounts.
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FL-200
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by FL-200 »

None sense.

I’ve made plenty of money from discounted company shares at the airlines I’ve worked at.

I always recommend people partake in ESOP. Not only is it free money, but all employees should also be owners in the company they work for. ESOP allows us proletariat to benefit from the means of our own production.

However, just because you work for a company doesn’t make that company any more special. You should never let your ESOP take up a disproportionate size of your total net worth. For most of us (myself included) that means selling every year as soon as those free shares vest as using the proceeds to pay down debt, or reinvest in other less risky things.
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by montado »

sanjet wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:01 pm
trey kule wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Jepps posted:
I did forget to mention job security. Although airlines have failed/furloughed/merged as well, however that risk is much lower.
Really?

With the clarity of today, do you still think the risk is lower?

I heard a rumour (without Any evidence) , that over 30% of the airline pilots in the world today, will go into a different career. If nothing, it should make some think a bit.
I have always decided to have a different investment in something that is completely different from aviation. This should be a wake up call to a lot of us.

I still cannot comprehend pilots that buy shares in the company they work for. You will need that cash in times like these. Been a #1 rule to never invest in your own airline, even with share discounts.
Found the :bear:

Everyone is an investment expert today. I'm down 300k on my weed stocks... Can't lose of you don't selllllll! To the moon!
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by altiplano »

sanjet wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:01 pm
trey kule wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Jepps posted:
I did forget to mention job security. Although airlines have failed/furloughed/merged as well, however that risk is much lower.
Really?

With the clarity of today, do you still think the risk is lower?

I heard a rumour (without Any evidence) , that over 30% of the airline pilots in the world today, will go into a different career. If nothing, it should make some think a bit.
I have always decided to have a different investment in something that is completely different from aviation. This should be a wake up call to a lot of us.

I still cannot comprehend pilots that buy shares in the company they work for. You will need that cash in times like these. Been a #1 rule to never invest in your own airline, even with share discounts.
Don't shit where you eat.

I never hold more than a year of ESOP. Get the match, look for an exit and move the money into diversified ETFs. I kicked myself at times as the stock price went up and up, but the strategy has paid off big time on the first down turn.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by JeppsOnFire »

trey kule wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Jepps posted:
I did forget to mention job security. Although airlines have failed/furloughed/merged as well, however that risk is much lower.
Really?

With the clarity of today, do you still think the risk is lower?

I heard a rumour (without Any evidence) , that over 30% of the airline pilots in the world today, will go into a different career. If nothing, it should make some think a bit.
When I wrote that (seems like years ago) it was pretty reasonable.
Then Coronavirus smirked and said, watch this..
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by JeppsOnFire »

altiplano wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:50 pm
sanjet wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:01 pm
trey kule wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Jepps posted:


Really?

With the clarity of today, do you still think the risk is lower?

I heard a rumour (without Any evidence) , that over 30% of the airline pilots in the world today, will go into a different career. If nothing, it should make some think a bit.
I have always decided to have a different investment in something that is completely different from aviation. This should be a wake up call to a lot of us.

I still cannot comprehend pilots that buy shares in the company they work for. You will need that cash in times like these. Been a #1 rule to never invest in your own airline, even with share discounts.
Don't shit where you eat.

I never hold more than a year of ESOP. Get the match, look for an exit and move the money into diversified ETFs. I kicked myself at times as the stock price went up and up, but the strategy has paid off big time on the first down turn.
That’s good advice. I do the same.
They say that the joy you feel when your stock balloons does not nearly compare to the pain you feel when your stock bottoms out.
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sanjet
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by sanjet »

FL-200 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:29 pm
None sense.

I’ve made plenty of money from discounted company shares at the airlines I’ve worked at.

I always recommend people partake in ESOP. Not only is it free money, but all employees should also be owners in the company they work for. ESOP allows us proletariat to benefit from the means of our own production.

However, just because you work for a company doesn’t make that company any more special. You should never let your ESOP take up a disproportionate size of your total net worth. For most of us (myself included) that means selling every year as soon as those free shares vest as using the proceeds to pay down debt, or reinvest in other less risky things.
Nothing wrong with owning a few shares of a company you work for, but there is a limit. Warren Buffet just learned his lesson... again.

Ive been accumulating shares of Walmart, Microsoft, Costco... etc in the last decade. All are still near all times high and I’m earning dividend even in these times.
I don’t need shares of a company I work for to require me to be productive, I get to the gate, follow SOP’s, keep the operation as safe and on time as possible and go home. As I get older, the kool aid days are winding down. Don’t get me wrong, I do have the best job in the world, but as much as you hear the “Win as one” or “Top 10”, you’re just an expense at the end of the day.

It’s all about having a second source of liquidity. Just like flying, have an alternate.
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sanjet
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Re: King of the Hill

Post by sanjet »

montado wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 7:42 pm

Found the :bear:

Everyone is an investment expert today. I'm down 300k on my weed stocks... Can't lose of you don't selllllll! To the moon!
I flew with a colleague with a similar situation. I asked him what the PE ratio was of that weed company? He had no idea what I was asking.
That’s when I knew that industry was in a bubble lol
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