altiplano wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:45 am
I absolutely respect and appreciate a good dispatcher and the important job they do. But it isn't the most difficult job.
The hardest part doesn't have anything to do with ace pilot skills either though.
As Hangry said in his own way, if you don't understand what the hard part of this job is, why we carry ALL the ultimate responsibility when/if those brakes get released and the thrust levers go forward, then I don't think I can explain you and I'm not going to argue with you.
Right. So nobody defines what it is, yet you all assume you are talking about the same thing.
We are not talking about a trashy 703 op where saying no is the hardest part. You are talking about a decent 705 operation that is highly regulated with a bunch of checks and balances in place.
If we ignore unlikely failures, and focus on day to day operations, then for most 703/4/5 operations I would say that flight planning is the area where experience matters most: where can you trust the weather, what are alternates I actually want to go to, what is legal, what is smart etc. If you treat flight planning as a tool, you can cover all likely scenarios.
If you do the bare minimum flight planning ”because you have to”, then the flying itself will be a bit more stressed out if something happens.
So yes, I would consider proper flight planning the hardest part of most pilot jobs. A lot of accidents can be prevented by proper planning.
At the airlines, this planning is done for you. Chances that you would be send into dangerous weather are slim. A lot of the decision making you would need to survive in a shitty medevac job, is done by other people. The lack of experience is comoensated for this way.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:13 pm
I'm starting to question of you are even a pilot.
digits_ wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:36 am
I am an elektrotechnical (electronics) engineer without experience. I currently am a self employed website developer. Any idea if that would that help ? I thought the work permits were branche specific: eg if I manage to get in the country as a business man/self employed, I wouldn't be allowed to work for a boss. Or am I wrong about this ?
That was a few years back...
I saw you got your Canadian licenses and were hoping for a float job or a northern job after that... did you get one?
Are you flying airliners now?
Or just trolling other guys who are in the seat and know the reality of the job?
Buddy has zero experience or credibility to make assumptions.
I agree the flight planning being done for you helps, but like the other guy higher up said, when I did do it, it was a morning ritual while drinking my coffee and wasn't all that hard.
The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, and all while trying to stay on sked for the day with a 500 hour pilot with you in the right seat. And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. If something breaks then the real fun begins. Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm
The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, .
aka: flight planning.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Also, keep in mind all we're really talking about right now is 705.
Where a real problem is also starting to show is at the 703 level. When I first started flying you needed at a MINIMUM, 1000 hours to sit right seat in a Navajo. And that was already low considering the years before you need thousands more. Do I think you need 3000 hours to do that or even 3000 hours to be a Captain at 703? No, I don't... but the experience levels are dropping so quickly past the level I feel is "comfortable." If all 703 operators stood behind their pilots decisions then it woulnd't be as much of a concern, but we all know that's not the case and the pressure is immense to fly in weather you shouldn't be in and fly overweight. A 21 year old pimply Confed grad with no real life experience doesn't know HOW to say no.
NOW, we have 500 hour pilots flying around Northern Manitoba and Ontario in the left seat of single IFR multi engine pistons. Flying a King Air or Navajo is where you really learn what real icing is like, how to deal with shitty performance on take off our of some dump reserve, not a Q400 with GOBS of power.
I think we'll see more incidences at the 703 level as well.
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm
The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, .
aka: flight planning.
No.
This is shit I'm dealing with WHILE flying the plane, dofus.
Do you just trust the dispatcher and assume what they thought the weather would be, is what it is?
I can't even tell you the amount of times the weather at my planned alternate changed. And now I have to find one that works, and manage fuel. And all while flying a 30 minute leg where I'm also running landing numbers, watching the weather at the destination as it begins to fall and making sure my 500 hour FO doesn't do anything stupid.
You really need to take a break from pretending you know anything about flying a plane bigger than a Cessna.
That all workload and it can get high in a hurry... some guys manage it better than others, but it is challenging. Still not the hardest part though, IMO.
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm
The challenging part of being in the left seat of a 705 machine has really nothing to do with basic control of the aircraft. Anyone who's done the job would know that. When things get really fun is middle of winter, 6 legs, dealing with deicing, take off alternates, actual alternates, CRFI into fun places like Ft st John, .
aka: flight planning.
No.
This is shit I'm dealing with WHILE flying the plane, dofus.
Do you just trust the dispatcher and assume what they thought the weather would be, is what it is?
I can't even tell you the amount of times the weather at my planned alternate changed. And now I have to find one that works, and manage fuel. And all while flying a 30 minute leg where I'm also running landing numbers, watching the weather at the destination as it begins to fall and making sure my 500 hour FO doesn't do anything stupid.
You really need to take a break from pretending you know anything about flying a plane bigger than a Cessna.
I sincerely hope you flight plan a take off alternate before departure. If you do that while flying, you are creating problems, which is exactly the point I am trying to make.
I find it unlikely the weather goes from alternate minima to below landing minima on a 30 minute flight. Sure, it will occasionally happen, but if it becomes a regular thing, the issue is with the flight planning, not the weather. If the weather at your destination falls below landing minima and you dont get visual, you divert. That should not be a stress factor, especially not on a 30 min flight. You don’t need a ton of experience for that. That is just following procedures. Your own personal point of view might not even be important, follow the company policies, eg “the weather is crap but we would like you to try it anyway”.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
This is shit I'm dealing with WHILE flying the plane, dofus.
Do you just trust the dispatcher and assume what they thought the weather would be, is what it is?
I can't even tell you the amount of times the weather at my planned alternate changed. And now I have to find one that works, and manage fuel. And all while flying a 30 minute leg where I'm also running landing numbers, watching the weather at the destination as it begins to fall and making sure my 500 hour FO doesn't do anything stupid.
You really need to take a break from pretending you know anything about flying a plane bigger than a Cessna.
I sincerely hope you flight plan a take off alternate before departure. If you do that while flying, you are creating problems, which is exactly the point I am trying to make.
I find it unlikely the weather goes from alternate minima to below landing minima on a 30 minute flight. Sure, it will occasionally happen, but if it becomes a regular thing, the issue is with the flight planning, not the weather. If the weather at your destination falls below landing minima and you dont get visual, you divert. That should not be a stress factor, especially not on a 30 min flight. You don’t need a ton of experience for that. That is just following procedures. Your own personal point of view might not even be important, follow the company policies, eg “the weather is crap but we would like you to try it anyway”.
If you actually flew airplanes you'd know that you can go from not needing a TO alternate to needing one very quickly, after you've pushed, or while having long delays due to deicing or thunderstorms. Or having your original one go to shit. And yes weather can and does change fairly quickly from time to time even in sub 1 hour flights.
Just to add to the mix, I've taken off in the Q with the weather at the destination being SKC and forecasting SKC and getting there (13 mins air time) At minimums!
I also can't count how many times I've done YEG-YYC and had it go from pretty nice to Cat 2 and Cat 3 approaches enroute. Still, if you can't handle the workload in a 2 crew environment on a 30 min leg, you shouldn't be in an airplane to begin with.
I've never worked at Tim Horton's, but I'd love to argue with somebody that works there about what the hardest part of working at Tim Horton's is ...
I can assure you that dispatch even in the 705 world is a box ticking exercise for the most part. The planning that goes into a flight plan is not that comprehensive. It's a good resource but dealing with challenging and changing conditions in an airplane is more challenging than from behind a desk.
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm
...Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.
I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?
derateNO wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 pm
...Ever have to deal with dead boots on arrival into YVR with moderate to severe icing? Let me tell you it's not ideal.
I want to hear more about your story. We're they dead before you chose to leave the ground (MEL'd) or once you tried to clear the ice?
An outer section didn't inflate fully. Didn't manifest until there was ice on the boots and it didn't have the strength to inflate and shed the ice. Ended up landing without an issue, but it was still a bit nerve raking.
