Everyone’s talking about it...

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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

Depends. I'd be sending texts to friends to find out who the crew is.
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digits_
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by digits_ »

derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:03 am
Depends. I'd be sending texts to friends to find out who the crew is.
If you're that concerned, have you SMS'd the "bad" crews?
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GATRKGA
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by GATRKGA »

digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:05 am
derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:03 am
Depends. I'd be sending texts to friends to find out who the crew is.
If you're that concerned, have you SMS'd the "bad" crews?
No, we leave that to the demographics of Millenials that SMS themselves for forgetting to wear a safety west and a rotating beacon on their head when they went for their own walk around. :roll:

Or the idiots that SMS the front end because they think a call to the cockpit, that went unanswered due to a busy re-route transmission in foreign airspace, to ask them to bring the temp up, was a safety concern for the cabin. :lol:

You're a special something digits.
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digits_
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by digits_ »

GATRKGA wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:34 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:05 am
derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:03 am
Depends. I'd be sending texts to friends to find out who the crew is.
If you're that concerned, have you SMS'd the "bad" crews?


You're a special something digits.
Thank you. Does that mean you'd do nothing?

If you are concerned about the flying skills of a crew, to that level that you would pull your friends off the flight, you would still happily let 79 other people board the plane?

The way I see it, statements like those on a public forum, which could possibly hurt a named company, are either an exaggeration or they are not.
If they are an exaggeration, they are only polluting the discussion, and shouldn't be made
If they are not an exaggeration, and the situation is as dire as described, then I'd say it is your bloody duty to report it.

I'm sure people would love to boast with the inevitable "I told you so" if someting happens, but I'd like to think it would be much more impressive if employees of the company actually did something to correct a potentially unsafe situation.

You can make jokes about SMS all you want, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used if safety is actually compromised.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship

derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

They are capable of flying the plane, they've passed training and don't necessarily do things unsafe. I'm just not too confident in the ability to get things done if there's an emergency or shit hits the fan. Lack of SA or just overall experience.

I flew with many FOs who were OK but now I've seen them on Captain lists... But they passed training and the PIC assessment so who am I to say otherwise. I can however make a decision not to fly on a plane piloted by some of these individuals.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by GATRKGA »

digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:54 pm
GATRKGA wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:34 pm
digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:05 am


If you're that concerned, have you SMS'd the "bad" crews?


You're a special something digits.
Thank you. Does that mean you'd do nothing?

If you are concerned about the flying skills of a crew, to that level that you would pull your friends off the flight, you would still happily let 79 other people board the plane?

The way I see it, statements like those on a public forum, which could possibly hurt a named company, are either an exaggeration or they are not.
If they are an exaggeration, they are only polluting the discussion, and shouldn't be made
If they are not an exaggeration, and the situation is as dire as described, then I'd say it is your bloody duty to report it.

I'm sure people would love to boast with the inevitable "I told you so" if someting happens, but I'd like to think it would be much more impressive if employees of the company actually did something to correct a potentially unsafe situation.

You can make jokes about SMS all you want, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used if safety is actually compromised.
You should get into management.
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L39Guy
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by L39Guy »

co-joe wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:39 am
Do you folks honestly think it's just a matter of time before the low experience level in the flight deck at Jazz causes a hull loss?

Would each of you fly as a passenger on Jazz/ would you allow your family to fly on Jazz knowing how low the experience level up front is?
I would not hesitate for a millisecond flying on Jazz (or Encore or Swoop) personally or a relative or friend.

Knowing the quality of new hires these organizations are getting (OFS, top graduates from the flying colleges, etc.) combined with an excellent training program, excellent aircraft with the latest technology, and a training system that filters out weak FO's and Captains, they have all the ingredients to have a perfectly safe operation.

Attitude and training make up for a lack of hours in a logbook. As well, safety does not increase linearly with flying hours; in mathematical terms it is more logarithmic with the benefit of increased hours becoming less important with more hours. For example, having twice as many hours does not make someone twice as safe or four times as many hours does not make someone four times safer. It's a fraction of those values.

Take a look at recent accidents around the world - with the exception of Ethiopian with a 350 hour FO (who could not hand fly an airplane but neither could his 8,000 hour Captain), the pilots all had thousands of hours of experience. There are plenty of relatively low-time pilots flying around very safely if they have the proper attitude and training as well as management support.
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

In theory, yes.

However things aren't as they were 2-3 years ago. Pilots taking 2-3 attempts to pass the PIC (whereas it was a one and done for a long time) and many FO's upgrading and just scraping through. Sure they meet the "minimum" but that minimum was based on past experiences and the type of pilots Jazz was hiring. I know a few sim instructors there, and the stories I hear are quite baffling. Yet many seem to just scrape by the left seat upgrades.

On a normal day, they will do just fine. Jazz hand holds you through everything, but when things start to go south as they often do I hate to say that that some of these FO's now Captains which I've flown with may end up in the side of a mountain.

Flying through Southern Ontario is one thing. London, Hamilton, Montreal, Thunder Bay etc. I'm more concerned about inexperienced pilots in BC flying into Terrace, Kelowna, Penticton, Castlegar and Whitehorse. At night. In the winter. With a 400 hour FO.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by goingnowherefast »

It's not the normal operations I'm worried about, not even the typical abnormal or emergency procedures. Shutting off an engine on a transport category airplane isn't that scary. Most things in the QRH aren't all that difficult to handle with proper training. It's the unscripted, unforseeable events that worry me. The "Miracle on the Hudson" or Sioux City Iowa DC-10 crash (United 232). The events where the pilot flips open the QRH and there's nothing there. Then has to dig back through years and years of experience to when they encountered something similar, or heard a groundschool instructor or a mechanic mention a design quirk.

The captain of United 232 CRM'd the hell out of that accident, and that's not something you learn in a one day class during upgrade training. It takes years of managing different personalities and different crewmembers through all kinds of situations to learn how to get the best out of everybody in unpredictable and even normal events.

What happens if you loose an engine in severe icing? Do you shoot the approach and plan bust minimums? Or do you attempt the single engine missed approach, continue icing up and crash 10 miles past the airport? Or push the operating engine power lever to the stop and Vmc roll into the ground upside-down? Does a 1600hr captain with a 400hr FO have the ability to make that decision, or will they follow the training from sim 2 months ago and do the single engine missed approach? I'd wager they don't even know they're in severe icing.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by GATRKGA »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
It's not the normal operations I'm worried about, not even the typical abnormal or emergency procedures. Shutting off an engine on a transport category airplane isn't that scary. Most things in the QRH aren't all that difficult to handle with proper training. It's the unscripted, unforseeable events that worry me. The "Miracle on the Hudson" or Sioux City Iowa DC-10 crash (United 232). The events where the pilot flips open the QRH and there's nothing there. Then has to dig back through years and years of experience to when they encountered something similar, or heard a groundschool instructor or a mechanic mention a design quirk.

The captain of United 232 CRM'd the hell out of that accident, and that's not something you learn in a one day class during upgrade training. It takes years of managing different personalities and different crewmembers through all kinds of situations to learn how to get the best out of everybody in unpredictable and even normal events.

What happens if you loose an engine in severe icing? Do you shoot the approach and plan bust minimums? Or do you attempt the single engine missed approach, continue icing up and crash 10 miles past the airport? Or push the operating engine power lever to the stop and Vmc roll into the ground upside-down? Does a 1600hr captain with a 400hr FO have the ability to make that decision, or will they follow the training from sim 2 months ago and do the single engine missed approach? I'd wager they don't even know they're in severe icing.
Exactly.

Don’t worry though, these kids will follow the book right into the ground lol
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
It's not the normal operations I'm worried about, not even the typical abnormal or emergency procedures. Shutting off an engine on a transport category airplane isn't that scary. Most things in the QRH aren't all that difficult to handle with proper training. It's the unscripted, unforseeable events that worry me. The "Miracle on the Hudson" or Sioux City Iowa DC-10 crash (United 232). The events where the pilot flips open the QRH and there's nothing there. Then has to dig back through years and years of experience to when they encountered something similar, or heard a groundschool instructor or a mechanic mention a design quirk.

The captain of United 232 CRM'd the hell out of that accident, and that's not something you learn in a one day class during upgrade training. It takes years of managing different personalities and different crewmembers through all kinds of situations to learn how to get the best out of everybody in unpredictable and even normal events.

What happens if you loose an engine in severe icing? Do you shoot the approach and plan bust minimums? Or do you attempt the single engine missed approach, continue icing up and crash 10 miles past the airport? Or push the operating engine power lever to the stop and Vmc roll into the ground upside-down? Does a 1600hr captain with a 400hr FO have the ability to make that decision, or will they follow the training from sim 2 months ago and do the single engine missed approach? I'd wager they don't even know they're in severe icing.
well.....I guess statistically, people shouldn't lose sleep. How many Sioux City's have we had in the last 50 years, or how many double engine failures ?

How many engine failures does a 705 pilot see every 10000 hours ? 5, 6, 7 at most ?

What happens if the PFD starts displaying in upside down because the software programmer didn't debug COBOL properly, and you have to fly it inverted single engine raw data to a 3000 foot runway with no papis, and there's a terrorist on board, and the cockpit door failed during flight.
and the first officer has diarrhea and is incapacitated !?

But yeah, i'm actually on your side. I've resigned to the statistics that we will probably be ok. I've also resigned to the fact that I get paid the exact same as the pilot who doesn't know how to fly efficiently (fuel), who has no concept of passenger comfort, has no airmanship whatsoever, puts the autopilot on at 1000 feet and off at 200 feet on a CAVU day; is generally clueless and yes, may completely suck if there is a major emergency.

Hard landings, tail strikes and lots of RAs are hopefully the biggest problems we'll see.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by Daniel Cooper »

doiwannabeapilot wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:28 pm

How many engine failures does a 705 pilot see every 10000 hours ? 5, 6, 7 at most ?
What? I'm way overdue.
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altiplano
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by altiplano »

Jeez, could you imagine? 5, 6, 7?

One every other year or so? for each pilot?

I'd really be questioning where I worked... if that was the rate, there would be a few every day at AC alone.
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Hangry
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by Hangry »

No kidding. Lol. I must be super lucky.
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L39Guy
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by L39Guy »

derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:17 pm
In theory, yes.

However things aren't as they were 2-3 years ago. Pilots taking 2-3 attempts to pass the PIC (whereas it was a one and done for a long time) and many FO's upgrading and just scraping through. Sure they meet the "minimum" but that minimum was based on past experiences and the type of pilots Jazz was hiring. I know a few sim instructors there, and the stories I hear are quite baffling. Yet many seem to just scrape by the left seat upgrades.

On a normal day, they will do just fine. Jazz hand holds you through everything, but when things start to go south as they often do I hate to say that that some of these FO's now Captains which I've flown with may end up in the side of a mountain.

Flying through Southern Ontario is one thing. London, Hamilton, Montreal, Thunder Bay etc. I'm more concerned about inexperienced pilots in BC flying into Terrace, Kelowna, Penticton, Castlegar and Whitehorse. At night. In the winter. With a 400 hour FO.
The fact that it takes 2 or 3 attempts for some to pass the PIC training tells me the system is working, much like it is where I hear that 50% of the NB Airbus command upgrades fail on the first try and 20% never make it. The standard is being upheld. Bravo.

I agree that the non-mountainous stations should not pose a problem and that mountainous ones could. Mitigating that, however, is that unless the new captains are changing airplanes and bases (unlikely) as YVR pilots they would seen these airports scores of times as FO’s, particularly the Q400 pilots doing 4 or more sectors per day for months or years prior to upgrading.

I would like to think too that Jazz Flight Ops management keeps an eye on new captains particularly when the weather is marginal.
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

No I don't think you understand. We're talking 2-3 attempts in a row.

Not like, fail... reapply for an upgrade in a year or whatever.

This is not PIC training, that doesn't really exist. It's the PIC assessment sim. You either have what it takes or you don't.

Additionally there are many people going from CRJ FO to Q400 CA. They don't ever see those airports, they are babied in and out of high density radar controlled airspace through Canada and the USA.

As for management keeping an eye on you? Nah. Once you're released you're released. There's green on green limitations to 100 hours but that's it. It's all on you as PIC to talk to who you need to including dispatch, CP or Mx when needed.
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av8ts
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by av8ts »

L39Guy wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:43 pm
derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:17 pm
In theory, yes.

However things aren't as they were 2-3 years ago. Pilots taking 2-3 attempts to pass the PIC (whereas it was a one and done for a long time) and many FO's upgrading and just scraping through. Sure they meet the "minimum" but that minimum was based on past experiences and the type of pilots Jazz was hiring. I know a few sim instructors there, and the stories I hear are quite baffling. Yet many seem to just scrape by the left seat upgrades.

On a normal day, they will do just fine. Jazz hand holds you through everything, but when things start to go south as they often do I hate to say that that some of these FO's now Captains which I've flown with may end up in the side of a mountain.

Flying through Southern Ontario is one thing. London, Hamilton, Montreal, Thunder Bay etc. I'm more concerned about inexperienced pilots in BC flying into Terrace, Kelowna, Penticton, Castlegar and Whitehorse. At night. In the winter. With a 400 hour FO.
The fact that it takes 2 or 3 attempts for some to pass the PIC training tells me the system is working, much like it is where I hear that 50% of the NB Airbus command upgrades fail on the first try and 20% never make it. The standard is being upheld. Bravo.

I agree that the non-mountainous stations should not pose a problem and that mountainous ones could. Mitigating that, however, is that unless the new captains are changing airplanes and bases (unlikely) as YVR pilots they would seen these airports scores of times as FO’s, particularly the Q400 pilots doing 4 or more sectors per day for months or years prior to upgrading.

I would like to think too that Jazz Flight Ops management keeps an eye on new captains particularly when the weather is marginal.
There were 21 YVR Q Captains positions that went unfilled in the last equipment bid. That means those Captains could come from any type on any base, or even DEC. Your going to have Captains new on type who’ve never flown in the mountains with newer fo’s. And their dispatcher has no idea how new they are.
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altiplano
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by altiplano »

Maybe if you wash out on your upgrade you should have to wait a year or something before trying again?

3 strikes you're out? FO for life?

Put some skin in the game and maybe guys don't jump the gun and wait until they're really ready?
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

Used to be that way.

When I went through my upgrade, you had to have a year of no failed rides before hand and pass the PIC on the first try. If you fail you're out and had to wait 6mos/1yr I can't recall.

Now they are so short on people they are making a lot of exceptions and really sticking to the basics when grading the assessments. Basically "did you die." No? Here's your 4 bars.
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by Canoehead »

derateNO wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:52 am
Now they are so short on people they are making a lot of exceptions and really sticking to the basics when grading the assessments. Basically "did you die." No? Here's your 4 bars.
That's not accurate. Not even maybe.
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altiplano
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by altiplano »

derateNO wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:52 am
you had to have a year of no failed rides before hand and pass the PIC on the first try.
You'd think you should be passing FO rides consistently just to stay employed!?

Then your upgrade ride? If you aren't the most prepared that day to go through the motions then when will you be?

I always wonder, like, who's failing rides? Especially FOs? Jesus...
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

Well I know a few people who have just had bad days. People I flew with a fair bit who had an issue here or there with a recurrent. Not everyone is perfect.

But I do agree with being prepared for your upgrade. You should be able to recite anything and everything they ask you to do without a second though.
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by Oxi »

derateNO wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:17 pm
In theory, yes.

However things aren't as they were 2-3 years ago. Pilots taking 2-3 attempts to pass the PIC (whereas it was a one and done for a long time) and many FO's upgrading and just scraping through. Sure they meet the "minimum" but that minimum was based on past experiences and the type of pilots Jazz was hiring. I know a few sim instructors there, and the stories I hear are quite baffling. Yet many seem to just scrape by the left seat upgrades.

On a normal day, they will do just fine. Jazz hand holds you through everything, but when things start to go south as they often do I hate to say that that some of these FO's now Captains which I've flown with may end up in the side of a mountain.

Flying through Southern Ontario is one thing. London, Hamilton, Montreal, Thunder Bay etc. I'm more concerned about inexperienced pilots in BC flying into Terrace, Kelowna, Penticton, Castlegar and Whitehorse. At night. In the winter. With a 400 hour FO.
case in point, captainkirk... pfo, sim fails and then ac
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by rxl »

derateNO wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:52 am

Now they are so short on people they are making a lot of exceptions and really sticking to the basics when grading the assessments. Basically "did you die." No? Here's your 4 bars.
This is absolute BS.
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derateNO
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Re: Everyone’s talking about it...

Post by derateNO »

It's not though.
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