Offering Flights with a PPL

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digits_
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by digits_ »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:01 pm A number of pilots, who instead of just quietly go about their flying, enter into protracted discussion about trying to find exactly the point up to which something is legal!
What's wrong with that? Maybe if more people did that, there would be less violations.

I can't help but detect a hint of "just keep it quiet and do it anyway" in your post, which is quite unfair to the pilots who want to keep everything legal and have discussions to find out what is acceptable.
PilotDAR wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:01 pm I recall an informal policy: "If you think you need to ask, the answer is probably no."
Or it could be an indication of a lazy inspector.
PilotDAR wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:01 pm
Do not find yourself on the wrong side of the rules, having solicited money for piloting if you're a PPL. Particularly don't do it in someone else's plane, you might not like what the owner and insurer say if something goes wrong!
Completely agree! But before you can do that, you need to fully understand the rules. If one were to apply "if you think you need to ask, the answer is probably no" as a life motto, one would most likely not be flying at all.
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Capt. Underpants
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by Capt. Underpants »

jakeandelwood wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:06 pm Jesus! That's all the fine he got? Demonstrating forced landings by actually shutting down the engine? What a moron.
Yeah, he got a break. The maximum penalty for individuals who break those particular regulations is $5,000 per contravention.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by PilotDAR »

PilotDAR wrote: ↑

A number of pilots, who instead of just quietly go about their flying, enter into protracted discussion about trying to find exactly the point up to which something is legal!

What's wrong with that? Maybe if more people did that, there would be less violations.
Well.... Like many things in flying, the wise pilot always leaves themself some margin between what they plan to do, and the limit of the rule. The rules associated with this are pretty clear.
I can't help but detect a hint of "just keep it quiet and do it anyway" in your post, which is quite unfair to the pilots who want to keep everything legal and have discussions to find out what is acceptable.
No intended, just follow the rules. Seeming to ask how to get around them, or pretending that you can't understand the regulation does not put a pilot in a good light. If the question were: "Can you point me to the CAR about...", or, "I've read CAR 401.28, and there's this one aspect I'm having trouble interpreting", that's nicely different than:
I haven't been able to find a direct answer in the CAR's
if it would be legal for me to put an ad on Kijiji offering flights


CAR 401.28 (1), (2)(a), (b), and (c) which seem to be a direct answer to the question.
but I need to be completely positive before doing this.
Very wise.

And, just 'cause I'm unsure after reading the interpretation in CAR 101.01, does anyone know: Is a pilot who rents a plane the "operator" for the purpose of CAR 410.28(2)(a)? I'm thinking not, as I expect the entity renting the plane out would be the operator, whether they actually own it, or lease it from someone else. I'm thinking a lease is different to a rental, but I've never delved into that.
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Bede
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by Bede »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:31 pm And, just 'cause I'm unsure after reading the interpretation in CAR 101.01, does anyone know: Is a pilot who rents a plane the "operator" for the purpose of CAR 410.28(2)(a)? I'm thinking not, as I expect the entity renting the plane out would be the operator, whether they actually own it, or lease it from someone else. I'm thinking a lease is different to a rental, but I've never delved into that.
The definition of operator is broad. For the issue that we're discussing, if a pilot is receiving the money, then they are the "operator".

https://decisions.tatc.gc.ca/tatc/tatc/ ... q=billings
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photofly
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by photofly »

The person who rents the plane has been held to have been the operator.

Here's a case where someone hired an airplane from an FTU and was paid to make a flight. The pilot was fined by TC for a violation of the "hire and reward" as the "operator" and not the FTU. The decision was upheld by the tribunal:
https://decisions.tatc.gc.ca/tatc/tatc/ ... 6/index.do
The applicant received an amount of $500 for the use of the aircraft and as such, this falls within the definition of "hire or reward". The applicant had possession of the aircraft, not necessarily as owner or lessee but certainly in another capacity, and such possession falls under the definition of the word "operator" in section 101 of the CARs.
...
n the present case, once the Minister proved the elements of the infraction and in particular that it was the applicant who organized the use of the aircraft and decided who would fly the aircraft and where, including who received payment notwithstanding that APII was the registered owner, the burden of proof shifted to the applicant who had to provide more evidence to justify that he was not the operator. Such evidence might have been, for example, a reimbursement of the amount of $500 to APII if that was the case.
Essentially the tribunal is saying, "follow the money." If you have final say over who is aboard the aircraft and where it goes, you are the operator. And you had better not receive any money, in that case.

Interestingly the PIC for the infracting flight was a TC inspector; no enforcement action was taken against him.

However, if the owner was implicated in the illegal hire and reward scheme, TC would probably pursue them too, per Brant Paul Billings and Billings Family Enterprises Ltd. v. Minister of Transport (TATC file no. P. 3115-02 and 2008 FC17)
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by Capt. Underpants »

The inspector did not receive remuneration for the flight, so enforcement action against him wasn’t appropriate. However, the favours he received in getting access to the aircraft for his son’s training without cost did violate the public service code of values and ethics and for that, he should have faced disciplinary action. If he did (I’m sceptical), that part would never be made public.
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photofly
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by photofly »

I’d like to think the internal optics of a TC enforcement investigation having to go to another region because of the presence of an inspector as PIC of the infracting flight had some impact.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by DonutHole »

kijiji

"Hello everybody, I am a private pilot. Every morning I leave x airport and depart for y airport, I sit around for a few hours and drink coffee before I return. If you would like to come for the flight and share costs please contact xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please understand you are incidental to the flight and no flight destinations, departure times or any other flight detail will be changed to accommodate the incidental passenger"

Boom, legal sched service.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by DonutHole »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:31 pm
PilotDAR wrote: ↑

A number of pilots, who instead of just quietly go about their flying, enter into protracted discussion about trying to find exactly the point up to which something is legal!

What's wrong with that? Maybe if more people did that, there would be less violations.
Well.... Like many things in flying, the wise pilot always leaves themself some margin between what they plan to do, and the limit of the rule. The rules associated with this are pretty clear.
I can't help but detect a hint of "just keep it quiet and do it anyway" in your post, which is quite unfair to the pilots who want to keep everything legal and have discussions to find out what is acceptable.
No intended, just follow the rules. Seeming to ask how to get around them, or pretending that you can't understand the regulation does not put a pilot in a good light. If the question were: "Can you point me to the CAR about...", or, "I've read CAR 401.28, and there's this one aspect I'm having trouble interpreting", that's nicely different than:
I haven't been able to find a direct answer in the CAR's
if it would be legal for me to put an ad on Kijiji offering flights


CAR 401.28 (1), (2)(a), (b), and (c) which seem to be a direct answer to the question.
but I need to be completely positive before doing this.
Very wise.

And, just 'cause I'm unsure after reading the interpretation in CAR 101.01, does anyone know: Is a pilot who rents a plane the "operator" for the purpose of CAR 410.28(2)(a)? I'm thinking not, as I expect the entity renting the plane out would be the operator, whether they actually own it, or lease it from someone else. I'm thinking a lease is different to a rental, but I've never delved into that.
Lease is definitely different than a rental. For the purposes of Transport Canada the Lessee is the registered owner of the aircraft.
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ahramin
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by ahramin »

Well, legal money loosing sched service. Maybe. As long as you do the flight regardless of whether or not anyone shows up.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by DonutHole »

ahramin wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:55 am Well, legal money loosing sched service. Maybe. As long as you do the flight regardless of whether or not anyone shows up.
You would have to do the flight whether or not anyone shows up, that's what makes the passengers in the future incidental.
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digits_
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by digits_ »

DonutHole wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:50 am kijiji

"Hello everybody, I am a private pilot. Every morning I leave x airport and depart for y airport, I sit around for a few hours and drink coffee before I return. If you would like to come for the flight and share costs please contact xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please understand you are incidental to the flight and no flight destinations, departure times or any other flight detail will be changed to accommodate the incidental passenger"

Boom, legal sched service.
Isn't that the Swoop business model?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

digits_ wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:02 am
DonutHole wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:50 am kijiji

"Hello everybody, I am a private pilot. Every morning I leave x airport and depart for y airport, I sit around for a few hours and drink coffee before I return. If you would like to come for the flight and share costs please contact xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please understand you are incidental to the flight and no flight destinations, departure times or any other flight detail will be changed to accommodate the incidental passenger"

Boom, legal sched service.
Isn't that the Swoop business model?
bahah amazing. Thats a truly good ad and perfectly legal. yes you have to do the flight in my opinion.
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Heliian
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by Heliian »

CPT.HarshColdReality wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:51 pm
digits_ wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:02 am
DonutHole wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:50 am kijiji

"Hello everybody, I am a private pilot. Every morning I leave x airport and depart for y airport, I sit around for a few hours and drink coffee before I return. If you would like to come for the flight and share costs please contact xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please understand you are incidental to the flight and no flight destinations, departure times or any other flight detail will be changed to accommodate the incidental passenger"

Boom, legal sched service.
Isn't that the Swoop business model?
bahah amazing. Thats a truly good ad and perfectly legal. yes you have to do the flight in my opinion.
Sorry to ruin the party but you can't ask for money, if they gave you anything it could only max out at reasonable split of costs. You are just time building with random people at that point.

Also, any slight whiff of a Sched service is immediately scrutinized. Even if you're already a commercial operator.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by DonutHole »

Heliian wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:10 pm
CPT.HarshColdReality wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:51 pm
digits_ wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:02 am

Isn't that the Swoop business model?
bahah amazing. Thats a truly good ad and perfectly legal. yes you have to do the flight in my opinion.
Sorry to ruin the party but you can't ask for money, if they gave you anything it could only max out at reasonable split of costs. You are just time building with random people at that point.

Also, any slight whiff of a Sched service is immediately scrutinized. Even if you're already a commercial operator.
nothing in the CARs says you cant ask for money
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by ayseven »

But you can't advertise to strangers like the guy at the airshow did.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by Tanker299 »

It’s going to be interesting as those “ride sharing” companies try and break into aviation. There are a lot of people in the mindset that this will happen. They beat taxi companies some how, there no way you are sharing your car. You are driving for hire and reward, you don’t have the license or the medical that goes with it plus most likely don’t have the required insurance.
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lownslow
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by lownslow »

Okay, but like what if I charge a couple hundred bucks for a sweet coffee mug or something and as thanks I throw in a free flight to wherever you want to go?
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by Heliian »

lownslow wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:12 am Okay, but like what if I charge a couple hundred bucks for a sweet coffee mug or something and as thanks I throw in a free flight to wherever you want to go?
You can try, still would be fined.
Tanker299 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:05 am It’s going to be interesting as those “ride sharing” companies try and break into aviation. There are a lot of people in the mindset that this will happen. They beat taxi companies some how, there no way you are sharing your car. You are driving for hire and reward, you don’t have the license or the medical that goes with it plus most likely don’t have the required insurance.
They tried already. It's against the regs and not profitable. They do however have brokering apps where you can book seats on commercial rides.
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Re: Offering Flights with a PPL

Post by jakeandelwood »

Tanker299 wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:05 am It’s going to be interesting as those “ride sharing” companies try and break into aviation. There are a lot of people in the mindset that this will happen. They beat taxi companies some how, there no way you are sharing your car. You are driving for hire and reward, you don’t have the license or the medical that goes with it plus most likely don’t have the required insurance.
Yes, I don't really understand how these ride share companies are even legal, it's basically an under the table cab company. Driver doesn't have a class 4 licence and vehicle isn't commercially inspected, no business licence either. Could you imagine if Uber was doing what they are doing with small aircraft owners?
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