Were airlines sacrificed for the Nation ?

[rudder]

Unlike 9/11 and Sars, pilot's may have to exercise their back up plan because of the major surplus this will leave eh? I gotta tell you, I don't think I've ever seen anything this bad, where 10k+ hour guys with lots of quality time and type ratings are out of work and aren't even getting a single call from anyone... shows you how much experience really accounts for if you don't have a seniority number. In which some cases a seniority number means nothing either right now.

1980-1985 was pretty bad. Layoffs. 10,000 hour pilots in the right seat of twin otters.

I don’t see AC as dramatically smaller. But AC built itself as a significant global player. And it may be international operations will be most impacted.

Let’s all hope there is not a COVID round 2 in the fall. That would put most airlines in to bankruptcy.

[Old fella]

There just may be some sort of silver lining as compared to the early ‘80s as previously noted and that is demographics. No matter how the airline business shakes out- and I am not in a position to know or comment but the number of young new entrants chasing those jobs will certainly be far fewer than the horrible 80’s. That era who like me are retired didn’t make enough kids to keep’er going down the line, immigration is gonna be a requirement.

[ayseven]

Retirements and the number of people entering the field in future, is completely different to the 1980's, agreed - competition was, putting it mildly, fierce, but I for one, got work when I needed it, and these layed off airline guys will too - eventually. That said, nobody knows. I see more positives than negatives for the younguns, but it will depend on attitudes, as it always has.

[AirFrame]

Let’s all hope there is not a COVID round 2 in the fall. That would put most airlines in to bankruptcy.

Not just airlines. Businesses and individuals across the board would be in bankruptcy if that happens.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

US Airlines received 50 Billion dollars of Federal Aid. Many other countries came to the rescue of their respective airlines.

Canada’s airlines received NOTHING although they spent Millions flying hundreds of thousands of stranded Canadians home.

Canada’s great repatriation effort of its citizens stranded overseas was entirely funded by its Airlines, which as a consequence are all cash strapped. From January through then end of March, The Government did nothing for the Stranded passengers but tell them to come home. Even Air Canada would be in dire straits today if it had been forced to reimburse all its customers whose flights were canceled. All the Government did to relieve the airlines is have the CTA issue two decisions:
1) that airlines did not have to re-imburse its customers
2) That customer could not take the airlines to court during the COVID-19 crisis

So in the meantime, it is the Canadian travelling public whose flights were cancelled who have funded the repatriation.

[AuxBatOn]

US Airlines received 50 Billion dollar of Federal Aid. Many other countries came to the rescue of their respective airlines.

Canada’s airlines received NOTHING although they spent Millions flying hundreds of thousands of stranded Canadians home.

Why the airlines but not other industries?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

US Airlines received 50 Billion dollar of Federal Aid. Many other countries came to the rescue of their respective airlines.

Canada’s airlines received NOTHING although they spent Millions flying hundreds of thousands of stranded Canadians home.

Why the airlines but not other industries?

I‘m not talking about financial aid for Surviving the Covid-19 crisis. I’m talking about the Government reimbursing the airlines for the direct cost of flying the Canadians home. What other industry paid for this ?

[mmm..bacon]

That said, nobody knows. I see more positives than negatives for the younguns, but it will depend on attitudes, as it always has.

Not sure that I necessarily agree...I wonder how many of the young'uns will fold the tent after a large downturn like this where they might potentially be out of work for 2 or more years? If you are the stereotypical regional hire (1000 hrs, exams written, hoping for PICUS to get your A's, student loan, etc..) how long are you going to wait for the call-back phone call before you go and become an accountant, orcarpenter, or health-care professional, and make some real, stable, money?

That being said, one wonders how many people are going to drop out of training now for the next 1,2,3 years, and what the supply crunch is going to be like in 5 years.. "Son, why are you going to spend all of that money to become a pilot, when your Uncle Bob was just laid off for two years?...I'd get into plastics, young man.."

[Trematode]

I think I have a problem with the question, fundamentally.

Like so many parts of the western world's decision making process in the midst of this crisis, you're framing the question in economic terms, when we're dealing with a problem that transcends that. The more fundamental concern at play is the moral responsibility all carriers -- and indeed, all flight crew -- have to their passengers. The industry itself would not exist were it not for this bond of trust between the people facilitating the ride, and the people taking it.

I'm just a corporate guy, so maybe it's a little easier for me to see. It's a more intimate interaction: The people in the back aren't just numbers; the crew I fly with are my dear friends. That intimacy makes my responsibilities crystal clear.

In the lead up to the crisis, the machinery of the industry was still running at full bore. This, despite the fact that there was a clear threat to global stability and health and safety around the world. One could safely say that continuing flight ops as normal, dispersing travelers to distant locations around the globe -- and even playing a very real part in facilitating the transmission and spread of this virus -- was utterly irresponsible. To then have any segment of the industry wash their hands of that, and simply shut down operations, and leave their passengers stranded would have been one of the most egregious and blatant displays of greed and inhumanity in the history of the modern world.

Thankfully the industry, when you get right down to it, is still run by real people: The shareholders; the CEOs; the executive management. For as much of a beating as they can sometimes take for their part in playing the harsh capitalistic game in this polarized modern world, they managed to maintain enough for their humanity to make the right decisions, almost universally.

They recognized they have a responsibility to the flying public; that they built their vast organizations of people and machines on the backs of the passengers; and they (the people they transport) must be safeguarded from the minute they step onto the plane, until they walk off the sky bridge back at home.

Without them accepting and taking that responsibility seriously, there never would have been an industry to begin with, and there sure as hell wouldn't be one going forward.

So my answer is a resounding NO.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

So my answer is a resounding NO.

Nice text. I don’t disagree with it. But..... What if the government aid package was conditional on reimbursing all the passengers that had their flight cancelled, many of which had not yet even left Canada ? For now, they, not the airlines, are paying for it.

The virtuous airline CEOs sacrificed their airlines to bring their passengers home ?

Westjet suspended all international flights on March 22 and stated further repatriations flight would be done “in partnership” with the Canadian government. What did that mean exactly ? Westjet continued flying at its own expense ?

[Trematode]

Nice text. I don’t disagree with it. But..... What if the government aid package was conditional on reimbursing all the passengers that had cancelled flights, many of which had not yet even left Canada ? For now, they, not the airlines, are paying for it.

The question of reimbursement is obviously going to be secondary to health and safety, so I think that question would be much more open to debate.

I think that when we're in the throws of this -- when Canada reaches its own peak of infection -- people are just going to be happy they stayed home. They will be mourning the loss of loved ones, their own jobs, and businesses. Worrying about money that was spent on a vacation they never took in the face of this disaster, might even seem petty. After all, they had already planned on spending that money. The real loss is their leisure time.

I say let's worry about the immediate problem, and then start putting our lives back together. Reimbursement for trips never taken, should be a long way from the top of our list of priorities.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Nice text. I don’t disagree with it. But..... What if the government aid package was conditional on reimbursing all the passengers that had cancelled flights, many of which had not yet even left Canada ? For now, they, not the airlines, are paying for it.

I say let's worry about the immediate problem, and then start putting our lives back together. Reimbursement for trips never taken, should be a long way from the top of our list of priorities.

You think someone who lost their job, or worse, a couple, both of whom lost their jobs, don’t care about several thousand dollars they paid for a vacation ?

Right now it is the airlines looking bad for not being able to reimburse the unused tickets (airlines worldwide) for if they did, they would all go under. They all put themselves on the edge of a cliff for flying the passengers home at their own expense, and now the Canadian airlines are being thrown under the bus.

[Trematode]

You think someone who lost their job, are worse, a couple, both of whom lost their jobs, don’t care about several thousand dollars they have in a paid vacations ?

Right now it is the airlines looking bad for not being able to reimburse the unused tickets (airlines worldwide) for if they did, they would all go under.

I say this as somebody who was supposed to go on vacation next week and hasn't been reimbursed (yet): There are more important things to be worrying about at the moment.

To be blunt, if you're absolutely that strapped for cash, I think the decision to pay for a vacation in the first place may have been the wrong one. The reality is that right now people are going to find themselves in a world of shit for a million different reasons. So I do think it is irrational to think that airlines should be able to honor your request for a refund in the middle of all of this.

As this thing progresses, I think most of the public is going to understand that as well.

[mbav8r]

You think someone who lost their job, are worse, a couple, both of whom lost their jobs, don’t care about several thousand dollars they have in a paid vacations ?

Right now it is the airlines looking bad for not being able to reimburse the unused tickets (airlines worldwide) for if they did, they would all go under.

I say this as somebody who was supposed to go on vacation next week and hasn't been reimbursed (yet): There are more important things to be worrying about at the moment.

To be blunt, if you're absolutely that strapped for cash, I think the decision to pay for a vacation in the first place may have been the wrong one. The reality is that right now people are going to find themselves in a world of shit for a million different reasons. So I do think it is irrational to think that airlines should be able to honor your request for a refund in the middle of all of this.

As this thing progresses, I think most of the public is going to understand that as well.

I agree, I was not happy that initially they were only offering credit valid until the end of this year for voluntary cancellation, I waited until the last minute and because my return flight was cancelled, I was able to get a 24 month credit. This is a realistic possibility to use the credit, end of this year not even remotely.
So ,yes absolutely happy to have a two year credit, providing I can still use it. I already counted that money as gone!
What’s going to happen when everybody starts traveling on credit, that’s the big question I have.

[ayseven]

It is going to come back. Everyone knows this.

[Gino Under]

I agree with you Gilles.

“It would have been more economical for all the airlines to park all their aircraft as soon as the first calls not to travel were made by the Prime Minister and lay all workers off.”

It would be nice to see the airline industry return to normal once this is over. At least the normal we knew just weeks ago would be nice. My sense is that it won’t.

The extreme reality right now is that this virus is going to inflict ruin on the industry. I doubt all of our present day airlines are likely to see a return to service. They all won’t. I expect a couple will simply be driven out of business through no fault of their own.
To expect, or even demand the government pay more than what can, at present, be reasonably expected for their survival, is folly. If there is to be any bailout in Canada for ‘the airlines’, it will be Air Canada. We know this. All the others will get kibble. If they’re lucky.

No Canadian airline should be flying at present. We have 5 Polaris (ex-Wardair passenger A310s) in Trenton capable of passenger configurations and therefore able to conduct repatriation flights. Who knows, maybe they’re already doing that. Let them retrieve stranded Canadians and provide quarantine upon return to Trenton. Difficult to do I suppose with limited accommodation. Somehow, forethought, strategic planning and flight sequencing could have gone a long way. Who knows?

I’d speculate that any return to what we might consider normal is going to be slow and agonizing. Families are getting financially clobbered right now. This shutdown will be months. Disposable income is out the window right now for most of us. When things start to crawl toward anything we might consider normal, the furthest thing from any consumers mind is likely to be climbing onto an airplane to go somewhere.

There’s no good news here.
Hang tough everyone. This is gonna sting.

Gino Under

[iflyforpie]

As someone who is not employed in the airline industry—but has still been financially affected by it because of Hollywood accounting BS.... I say, tough luck.

I cancelled my trip when things were looking bad and expected to eat the cost. The graciousness of AirBNB fully refunding my booking ensures that I will use them again when this is all over... and the airlines are playing the same game. When they aren’t coming back they pull a Canada 3000 or JetsGo and leave people stranded.

I don’t believe that businesses should be propped up for the risks their shareholders and creditors assume. We as individuals are expected to have six months of cash saved for emergencies like this while we still have to pay the mortgage, car payment, buy groceries, and nearly all of the same expenses but with no income or a fraction of it through EI...... yet airlines who have billions in market cap and cash reserves are suffering after a mere month of reduced fares even though they’ve slashed costs by furloughing employees and parking planes? Even though they are within their rights to hang on to non-refundable fares? Maybe they shouldn’t be over leveraged and dependent on cash flow. A few unlucky Canadians are about to find this out and I doubt anyone here will feel sorry for them.

These same airlines are the ones that nickel and dime you for everything. Want a checked bag? It will cost you. Want to select your seat? It will cost you. Want to change your booking? It will cost you. Want a meal? It will cost you. Want to collect points? It will cost you. Want a refundable fare? It will cost you. Want a “premium” economy seat that’s the same as a regular economy seat ten years ago? It will cost you.

These same airlines that have made yield management and overbooking an art form? Who could probably fly for years on fares they collected from people who never flew on their planes. The ones who issue that pretty boarding pass where it says CONFIRMED to your dream vacation but GTE on your seat assignment? You hate Gabor Lukacs? This BS is the reason people like him exist.

It’s also why the CTA exists. So that airlines can’t just stop the moment a route becomes unprofitable leaving people stranded. It’s the risk of running a scheduled passenger service and it’s definitely built into the cost of a ticket.

Personally..... I say we give them some meal vouchers and a complimentary upgrade if they choose to use us again within 12 months.

[iflyforpie]

And I just want to clarify that I really do feel for those on lay-offs, and I hope the government provides the support required for YOUR situation.

The airports and planes are still there, and people like me need a vacation more than ever. Maybe some names will change... lots will remain the same. The shortage of pilots will likely remain constant... less aggressive expansion being matched by increased attrition both from retirements and fewer people wanting to enter the industry.

[Hangry]

As someone who is not employed in the airline industry—but has still been financially affected by it because of Hollywood accounting BS.... I say, tough luck.

I cancelled my trip when things were looking bad and expected to eat the cost. The graciousness of AirBNB fully refunding my booking ensures that I will use them again when this is all over... and the airlines are playing the same game. When they aren’t coming back they pull a Canada 3000 or JetsGo and leave people stranded.

I don’t believe that businesses should be propped up for the risks their shareholders and creditors assume. We as individuals are expected to have six months of cash saved for emergencies like this while we still have to pay the mortgage, car payment, buy groceries, and nearly all of the same expenses but with no income or a fraction of it through EI...... yet airlines who have billions in market cap and cash reserves are suffering after a mere month of reduced fares even though they’ve slashed costs by furloughing employees and parking planes? Even though they are within their rights to hang on to non-refundable fares? Maybe they shouldn’t be over leveraged and dependent on cash flow. A few unlucky Canadians are about to find this out and I doubt anyone here will feel sorry for them.

These same airlines are the ones that nickel and dime you for everything. Want a checked bag? It will cost you. Want to select your seat? It will cost you. Want to change your booking? It will cost you. Want a meal? It will cost you. Want to collect points? It will cost you. Want a refundable fare? It will cost you. Want a “premium” economy seat that’s the same as a regular economy seat ten years ago? It will cost you.

These same airlines that have made yield management and overbooking an art form? Who could probably fly for years on fares they collected from people who never flew on their planes. The ones who issue that pretty boarding pass where it says CONFIRMED to your dream vacation but GTE on your seat assignment? You hate Gabor Lukacs? This BS is the reason people like him exist.

It’s also why the CTA exists. So that airlines can’t just stop the moment a route becomes unprofitable leaving people stranded. It’s the risk of running a scheduled passenger service and it’s definitely built into the cost of a ticket.

Personally..... I say we give them some meal vouchers and a complimentary upgrade if they choose to use us again within 12 months.

Hard to argue with any of that.

[rookiepilot]

Right now it is the airlines looking bad for not being able to reimburse the unused tickets (airlines worldwide) for if they did, they would all go under. They all put themselves on the edge of a cliff for flying the passengers home at their own expense, and now the Canadian airlines are being thrown under the bus.

Hmmmmm.

Do you know how much% of free cash flow AA spent on BUYING back their own shares last year, all to enrich corporate executives, who are then vested stock options based on certain metrics, INCLUDING the share price, which was pumped by the massive share buybacks, in some cases by loading the balance sheet with debt?

In American's case, 96%. 96% that wasn't used to strengthen the balance sheet, or save for a rainy day.

ANY slowdown for any reason would have put them all in jeopardy, cause they all do it, to one extent or another.

I have little sympathy, expect for the employees.

try doing at least enough homework to understand the bigger picture --


IFLY gets it. Companies shouldn't be bailed out for their accounting choices.