Flight school delays - Covid19

[YYZSaabGuy]

I'd be interested in hearing how CFC management enforces social distancing within the confines of a 40" wide light aircraft cabin. It would also be fascinating to hear how they expect instructors, students and renters to "avoid all contact with sick people" when Covid-19 carriers can be asymptomatic.

[Blowin' In The Wind]

Sounds like something the B.C. Ministry of Health should be made aware of...

[TwinOtterFan]

Well kudos to you I guess, enjoy your flying petri dish. Must be a provincial thing, here in Ontario that definitely would not fly.....

[the future of flight]

Sounds like something the B.C. Ministry of Health should be made aware of...

Can you show me where the BC ministry of health says no flight training? I bet you can't.

Maybe it's time that BC flight schools ask themselves why they are closed.

[the future of flight]

Well kudos to you I guess, enjoy your flying petri dish. Must be a provincial thing, here in Ontario that definitely would not fly.....

Thanks! I'm glad I'm not in Ontario.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Sounds like something the B.C. Ministry of Health should be made aware of...

Can you show me where the BC ministry of health says no flight training? I bet you can't.

From the BC Government web site

For Transportation the list below is the list of essential services


Supply chain services needed to supply goods for societal functioning, including:
Cooling
Storing
Packaging
Transportation
Warehousing
Distribution
Workers who support the maintenance and operation of cargo through air, marine, rail and trucking transportation services, including:
Crews, maintenance, operations and other facilities workers
Services to support and enable transportation, including highway, road, bridge maintenance and repair
Services to respond to emergencies impacting transportation routes
Employees who build, repair, maintain and overhaul vehicles, aircraft and parts, rail equipment, marine vessels, bicycles and the equipment and infrastructure that enables operations that encompass movement of cargo and passengers, as well as vehicle rentals and leasing, including land, air, and marine vessels engaged in national defence
Services and facilities that facilitate the interprovincial and intra-provincial transportation of essential supplies, personnel and services, including:
Port/waterfront operations
Road
Air
Rail operations
Commercial vehicle safety enforcement
Truck scales
Commercial vehicle inspection stations
Brokerages
Vehicle towing
Commercial cardlock fuel providers
Truck and rest stops
Private and public transportation services, such as:
Buses
Trains
Taxis
Car-share programs
Ride-hailing
Aircraft
Marine vessels


Not seeing flight training.....

[the future of flight]

Sounds like something the B.C. Ministry of Health should be made aware of...

Can you show me where the BC ministry of health says no flight training? I bet you can't.

From the BC Government web site

For Transportation the list below is the list of essential services


Supply chain services needed to supply goods for societal functioning, including:
Cooling
Storing
Packaging
Transportation
Warehousing
Distribution
Workers who support the maintenance and operation of cargo through air, marine, rail and trucking transportation services, including:
Crews, maintenance, operations and other facilities workers
Services to support and enable transportation, including highway, road, bridge maintenance and repair
Services to respond to emergencies impacting transportation routes
Employees who build, repair, maintain and overhaul vehicles, aircraft and parts, rail equipment, marine vessels, bicycles and the equipment and infrastructure that enables operations that encompass movement of cargo and passengers, as well as vehicle rentals and leasing, including land, air, and marine vessels engaged in national defence
Services and facilities that facilitate the interprovincial and intra-provincial transportation of essential supplies, personnel and services, including:
Port/waterfront operations
Road
Air
Rail operations
Commercial vehicle safety enforcement
Truck scales
Commercial vehicle inspection stations
Brokerages
Vehicle towing
Commercial cardlock fuel providers
Truck and rest stops
Private and public transportation services, such as:
Buses
Trains
Taxis
Car-share programs
Ride-hailing
Aircraft
Marine vessels


Not seeing flight training.....

From the same website:
"The PHO has ordered some types of businesses to close. Any business or service that has not been ordered to close and is also not identified on the essential service list may stay open if they can adapt their services and workplace to the orders and recommendations of the PHO.

All organizations and services must follow all PHO Orders, Notices and Guidance to ensure safe operations and reduce the risk of transmission of COVID-19"

So nice try, but no need to close.

[YYZSaabGuy]

From the same website:
"The PHO has ordered some types of businesses to close. Any business or service that has not been ordered to close and is also not identified on the essential service list may stay open if they can adapt their services and workplace to the orders and recommendations of the PHO.

All organizations and services must follow all PHO Orders, Notices and Guidance to ensure safe operations and reduce the risk of transmission of COVID-19"

So nice try, but no need to close.

Again, please explain to us how to practice social distancing while taking flight instruction in a light trainer (unless you're both wearing full hazmat suits), or how you and CFC plan to to identify individuals who are carrying the virus but are asymptomatic, so that you can avoid them.

So nice try, but closing probably not a bad idea.

[Blowin' In The Wind]

A bit surprised after doing some reading that the BC government isn't explicitly prohibiting flight schools from operating... Alberta laid down the law and prohibited training, and as far as I'm aware the flight schools have all followed their guidance (generally) and suspended operations except for fuel sales and the occasional place offering rentals. But seriously, this guy IS part of the problem thinking that social distancing shouldn't apply to him or that the science is somehow not clear that mild and asymptomatic transmission is occurring. But hey, the ends justify the means for the "future of flight". Clown.

[the future of flight]

A bit surprised after doing some reading that the BC government isn't explicitly prohibiting flight schools from operating... Alberta laid down the law and prohibited training, and as far as I'm aware the flight schools have all followed their guidance (generally) and suspended operations except for fuel sales and the occasional place offering rentals. But seriously, this guy IS part of the problem thinking that social distancing shouldn't apply to him or that the science is somehow not clear that mild and asymptomatic transmission is occurring. But hey, the ends justify the means for the "future of flight". Clown.

Wow. Now that you admit your wrong, you just call me names. Its not my fault that BC is taking a more common sense approach to this.

Serious question here to everyone - how do pilots in any cockpit practice "social distancing"? Are they 2 metres apart? And if not, how is flight training any different if we do good cleaning procedures and only fly with one instructor? You can't argue that flying passengers is essential. Maybe cargo, but people? How come you don't critisize that? So if you say close down flight training, I say stop all flying except cargo and medical.

[mr.aviation]

A bit surprised after doing some reading that the BC government isn't explicitly prohibiting flight schools from operating... Alberta laid down the law and prohibited training, and as far as I'm aware the flight schools have all followed their guidance (generally) and suspended operations except for fuel sales and the occasional place offering rentals. But seriously, this guy IS part of the problem thinking that social distancing shouldn't apply to him or that the science is somehow not clear that mild and asymptomatic transmission is occurring. But hey, the ends justify the means for the "future of flight". Clown.

Wow. Now that you admit your wrong, you just call me names. Its not my fault that BC is taking a more common sense approach to this.

Serious question here to everyone - how do pilots in any cockpit practice "social distancing"? Are they 2 metres apart? And if not, how is flight training any different if we do good cleaning procedures and only fly with one instructor? You can't argue that flying passengers is essential. Maybe cargo, but people? How come you don't critisize that? So if you say close down flight training, I say stop all flying except cargo and medical.

Well first off its not a common sense approach to still do flight training. You don't know you have it and can pass it along, the fact that you clean the planes doesn't mean you did a good job and cleaned everything you made contact with since you left your car... also what is the point of risking yourself anyways, there is no jobs out there at the moment. And in case you have not noticed, almost every operator that is still flying is only flying because there is a NEED to fly. Most places have shut down or laid off most of their pilots. The ones flying are not out doing sight seeing flights but cargo, medevac, and government charters getting people home. So yes it is hard for a pilot flying to practice social distancing but they are out getting a job done that is needed and helping the situation. Finishing up your ppl and cpl because the airspace is dead is not helping the situation but instead ignoring the PM and going out for non essential reasons. Don't worry bud you wont find a job even if you finish in a few months.
You are part of the reason we have to keep staying at home.. From your posts you are the one not using common sense... STAY HOME and this will get done sooner

[Ozinater]

A bit surprised after doing some reading that the BC government isn't explicitly prohibiting flight schools from operating... Alberta laid down the law and prohibited training, and as far as I'm aware the flight schools have all followed their guidance (generally) and suspended operations except for fuel sales and the occasional place offering rentals. But seriously, this guy IS part of the problem thinking that social distancing shouldn't apply to him or that the science is somehow not clear that mild and asymptomatic transmission is occurring. But hey, the ends justify the means for the "future of flight". Clown.

Wow. Now that you admit your wrong, you just call me names. Its not my fault that BC is taking a more common sense approach to this.

Serious question here to everyone - how do pilots in any cockpit practice "social distancing"? Are they 2 metres apart? And if not, how is flight training any different if we do good cleaning procedures and only fly with one instructor? You can't argue that flying passengers is essential. Maybe cargo, but people? How come you don't critisize that? So if you say close down flight training, I say stop all flying except cargo and medical.

So you think continuing dual flights is a fantastic idea right now because the government has not yet said that it isn't? Great. You should ask Italy how that mentality worked out for them. You seem to be of the opinion that you and your flight school are invincible thanks to a few policy changes, and then claiming that because of this it is "common sense" for them to continue flight ops. Next time you guys are all sitting in ground school in hazmat suits, maybe ask the instructor about hazardous attitudes. If CFC can't be proactive, I'm sure the BC government will step in and demand that they temporarily shut down after an outbreak has occurred and multiple staff/students are already infected. My flight school along with the majority of others in ON suspended all activity well before government intervention (after we had already adopted cleaning & social distancing measures, limiting the building occupancy and fleet usage etc). Eventually everyone came to their senses and realized it really doesn't matter if you're bathing the dozen usable airplanes in Lysol, or making everyone wear masks, or what have you. It's not worth risking everyone's health.

People need to get places. They need to get home, go care for sick relatives, travel for work if need be. All of that involves risk, which is why no one should really be travelling for leisure right now. I'm not going to explain why shutting down air travel altogether is not a good idea.

This might be the first time you hear this but, no one is going to die because it took you a few extra months to get your PPL. It does not matter what sort of mitigation strategies are in place or how aggressive they are - the fact that people are showing up and sitting shoulder-to-shoulder in a cramped training airplane is a hazard. There are organizations around the world with far more strict health & sanitation protocols that have brought forth local outbreaks. The implications of community spread by even just a few people being in contact with each other are severe and far-reaching, and by that I mean thousands of people in ICU and dying, in the worst case. You run the risk of contributing to that number every time you leave your house to go somewhere you don't really need to be to interact with people you don't really need to interact with. So stop being a selfish asshat and do your part.

Also, why on Earth would anyone be in a hurry to finish flight training right now? What exclusive top secret flying job would you be running to with 200 hours when there are 10000 hour recently out-of-work ATPL's looking for work? You going to finish your CPL & MIFR and go work as a grocery store clerk? There are mass layoffs happening at major airlines, regionals, 703/704, survey, flight schools. Where I work we went from being short of flight instructors in February to all of us being laid off in March. Even if you are stubborn and brash enough to keep doing dual flights in the midst of a global pandemic until you complete all your flight training (or contract COVID-19, whichever comes first), where are you running off to? It can wait.

[TwinOtterFan]

I'm hesitant to even post again as I assume it will likely fall on deaf ears, but I still feel its important. The link below is the growing list of doctors, nurses and healthcare officials that have died so far from Covid 19. In case you are wondering they were not wearing jeans and a T-shirt or even a button up and tie, they were dressed in scrubs, with a gown, sterile gloves, with a respirator and a face shield and you can bet your ass they cleaned the hell out of those rooms daily.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/927976

But you do you man, you clearly know more then them.

[FreelanceInstructor]

I'm hesitant to even post again as I assume it will likely fall on deaf ears, but I still feel its important. The link below is the growing list of doctors, nurses and healthcare officials that have died so far from Covid 19. In case you are wondering they were not wearing jeans and a T-shirt or even a button up and tie, they were dressed in scrubs, with a gown, sterile gloves, with a respirator and a face shield and you can bet your ass they cleaned the hell out of those rooms daily.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/927976

But you do you man, you clearly know more then them.

*slow clap*

I really couldn’t agree more. The only way to battle this thing is to flatten the curve of infection. The only way to do that is to stop fu***ng infecting other people by staying at home, and let this thing pass. Listen to the professionals and STAY AT HOME!! The sooner we get people actually listening to the suggestions instead of trying to read between the lines, the sooner we all can go back to our regular lives. I’m a freelance instructor, was I told to shut down operations? No. Did I? Yes. Because I have a professional and moral obligation to this province and country to do so. My question to you is anyone that is willing to continue Dual flight operations really should have their own PDM skills questioned. If a company(not singling one out from another), remains open because it’s open season for the ones who think they can make up their own rules, really, any student or staff member should be asking...what’s more important here? The dollar, or the customer/worker? I’ll bet it’s not because of the latter....

[goldeneagle]

*slow clap*

I really couldn’t agree more.

[EGW]

^ finally some real ‘common sense’

[dialdriver]

Tell your future employer you disregarded all recommendations for health and safety and went flying.

[ffrats]

If his future employer pays attention to detail, and checks his logbook, which will show hours flown during this quarantine/self isolation time period, how will his future employer view him?

Might such actions be regarded as a selfish and reckless disregard of safety? (As well as on the part of flight school). How will he explain that? “Well the school allowed me to fly so......” And because you were allowed to fly, you ——>MADE THE DECISION<—— to do so? Trust me on this son, those hours in your logbook right now, are a poor reflection on YOU AND your decision making.

This is no different than the same decision you are expected to make, when the slimy GM of ops, or Dispatch, or Maintenance, is trying to pressure you the PIC to look the other way, and Compromise LEGALITY/ETHICS/SAFETY. Ask yourself if your actions are compromising YOUR safety and/or the safety of OTHERS.

Your making the right decision starts NOW when you are at flight school, not when you get to the Airlines.

Ask yourself if this business entity, truly has your health and best interest at heart. Or are they WAITING, till someone becomes infected, to then stop operation? Because if so, they are operating as a business ONLY to make money, just like any other greedy business.u

Just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it’s ethical.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I have $0.02 to add to this...

My flight training is on hold indefinitely, and I recently bet my future on it. Could we get away with continuing my training? Probably, almost certainly. I'm training with a one-man flight school. Is it worth risking either spreading this virus, or my FTU's certification getting revoked? Definitely not. Is it worth showing up to an airport a few times a week? No.

My flight training is on hold for now, but then again, so is the entire industry, so the way I see it, everything will work itself out in the wash. It really sucks to have my training and future career put on hold indefinitely, but I can't change that.

Anyone, and I mean anyone continuing flight training now is being a selfish, dangerous jackwagon. We're all hurting, and your hurt is no more special than anyone else's.

[rookiepilot]

I'm hesitant to even post again as I assume it will likely fall on deaf ears, but I still feel its important. The link below is the growing list of doctors, nurses and healthcare officials that have died so far from Covid 19. In case you are wondering they were not wearing jeans and a T-shirt or even a button up and tie, they were dressed in scrubs, with a gown, sterile gloves, with a respirator and a face shield and you can bet your ass they cleaned the hell out of those rooms daily.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/927976

But you do you man, you clearly know more then them.

Ought to show this to Dr Pelmet, who inspires more like minded selfish individuals like this future of flight poster, who think safe practices that save lives don't apply to them.

You know THE supreme idiot on this site who flips the bird to the medical professionals, everyone who disagrees with him, and actual flying professionals. In other words, a dangerous idiot, as opposed to the truly stupid.

Dr. Pelmet should read this list of dead medical professionals, and spend his time thanking every medical professional he meets.

To the selfish minded, grow up. No one gives a crap if your life is delayed.

[photofly]

Well, this is a sobering read:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52196815

“ Twenty minutes later, I get another cardiac arrest. Same symptoms, same procedures, same results. This virus attacks the lungs: you can't get enough oxygen into your system, then other systems start to shut down and then organ failure.
We hit the button, get another one.
Hit the button after that, get another one.
There's only one patient we've seen so far who I feel wasn't Covid-19 and that's because it was a suicide. Imagine: I was there and my brain felt relief. This person's dead and it's a suicide. I felt relief that it was a regular job.
It is now around 11:00 and I've done about six cardiac arrests.
In normal times, a medic gets two or three in a week, maybe. You can have a busy day sometimes, but never this. Never this.

The seventh call gets to me.

We walk in and there's a woman on the floor. I see this woman doing CPR on her mother. She tells me she stopped breathing and had "the symptoms".
We go to work to try and save her. As the medics are doing their thing I walk over to the daughter and she tells me how it all went down. She says her mum has been sick for the last few days. They couldn't get a test but think she had "it".
I ask "are you the only family here?" She says yes but you guys were here on Thursday and worked on my dad. He had the symptoms as well. He passed away.
She looks numb.

I go back into the other room and hope that the medic will tell me there are signs of life. She looks up and I know the look after 17 years. The medic's eyes say no.
So now I have to tell the daughter that both her parents are dead in a matter of three days.
Her dad's not even buried yet. So this woman is going to have a double funeral, if she's lucky enough to get a funeral, because funerals aren't happening right now.”

[rookiepilot]

Very sobering.

A friend of mine just lost his very healthy, youngish cousin. No pre existing conditions. Dead overnight, didn't even make it to hospital. Health care worker.

[photofly]

I think something to bear in mind is that it would be very easy for every town and city to be in the same - or worse - situation than New York. Take a moment to think about that, and worse, being not just your town or city, but *everywhere* all at the same time.

[TwinOtterFan]

I was less than 60 days away from "freedom" and off to flight training school I was going, it sounds funny now to think about it.... I get it RedAndWhiteBarron. I have been trying to figure out how its all going to go now, what path will make sense. I've settled on let the cards fall where they may. Sure I'll be a little older, maybe even a little wiser (but I doubt it lol).

Photofly, sobering indeed, that hit home, brought back some memories of my early career. I've been at it for over ten years, you never forget....

As for our favorite new rookie, I guess he will be a pilot before me, I have decided to stay in and help until this is over. If he/she would like to come on over and teach this magical way of not getting infected I will be all ears...

meinclinic.jpg (53.51 KiB) Viewed 1777 times

[the future of flight]

Ok, it's confession time. After reading the latest posts in this thread, and venturing into the COVID-19 thread on the main page, I realize I need to be straight with you all. I am not a student pilot, and haven't been one for many many years. I do have a non-current CPL and class 4 instructor rating, but have never earned a dollar flying. I gave it up a number of years ago and my current interest in aviation is purely nostalgic. However, I do have ties to the lower mainland GA community, and Pitt Meadows is where I live.

I trolled this thread because I was genuinely concerned that a local flight was still conducting dual flight training during this global pandemic. Most flight schools in the lower mainland had wisely ceased operations in the last week of March, but CFC continued operating. Then about 10 days ago I tried to contact Fraser Health about my concerns, and then I contacted the local bylaw enforcement officer. The officer duly noted my concerns, but advised me that flight training had not been identified as a business that was required to close under the BC Public Health Office guidelines. It was then that I made a decision to use this forum as a means to hopefully draw attention to the idiocy of dual flight instruction at this time. For better or for worse, I chose to be a troll in the hopes that it would draw out some harsh criticism of dual flight training in a pandemic. I wanted students and instructors who were frustrated with their schools being closed to understand that it was for the better, and I wanted to force CFC and its students to seriously think about their choice to continue with flight training. Was this the right technique and forum to do this? I don't know, but I honestly appreciate the passionate responses my stupid posts elicited.

To all the posters who were angered by my stupidity, I sincerely apologize. You were all replying wisely and giving other readers of this thread sage advice. To any student pilots who think that it's safe to get dual flight instruction at this time, it's not, period. We're in for the long haul, so be patient and be safe. To the dangerous trolls over in the other thread (Pelmet, etc), I say @#$! you. Your stupid and simplistic ideas are politicizing a global crisis, and your so-called "discussion" is just sowing needless discontent. Your kind are part of the problem, not the solution. And to the Mods, I fully expect a perma-ban (not that it will be needed, as I have no intentions of posting on this site again). All I ask is that you do not delete this post.

And to everyone else, be safe. It will end, just not tomorrow.