MOA2

[FlyingMonkey]

This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.

You get my job at Encore..

Not good enough? Take EI instead.

[Edelweiss air]

The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ

We went from 150 spots to 292. 142 more open spots for mainline to bump into...

[Yycjetdriver]

Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions. I’m assuming most, if not all of those who negotiated those terms had their layoff notices already or would soon to be receiving them. This was a greasy play by the company to strong arm while they knew they still could.

[FlyingMonkey]

Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions. I’m assuming most, if not all of those who negotiated those terms had their layoff notices already or would soon to be receiving them. This was a greasy play by the company to strong arm while they knew they still could.

Right, so the pilot groups respective MEC shouldn’t have been allowed to negotiate on behalf of it’s own pilot group?

What planet are you on?

[Yycjetdriver]

Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions. I’m assuming most, if not all of those who negotiated those terms had their layoff notices already or would soon to be receiving them. This was a greasy play by the company to strong arm while they knew they still could.

Right, so the pilot groups respective MEC shouldn’t have been allowed to negotiate on behalf of it’s own pilot group?

What planet are you on?

The layoffs number were released already at that point, how many of those current Encore members would have retained their jobs? It’s a group with one foot out the door, negotiated terms that basically none of that MEC ot it’s members will ever even work under.
On what planet does that make sense?

Maybe the Mainline pilots maybe have the chance to return the favour. Say this drags on for 12+ months. Encore becomes entire made up of former jet guys. Things start to ramp back up, those jet guys get notice they’ll be heading back to the jet and the layed off Encore guys get notice 80% of them get to come back. The jet guys decide to negotiate an Encore MOA for massive pay cuts and concessions, I mean who cares they won’t have to work under those conditions and maybe they’ll make more jobs out of it. Who cares what the people who have to work under those conditions want because we’ll be gone anyways...... oh and the PTA will probably be gone.

[DirtyDashDriver]

This $625 compensation that only goes to a select group of Encore employees, can you explain what compensation the laid off WJ pilots who bump into Encore get? Why don’t they get $625? They are not coming as beggars, with cap in hand. They agreed to sell out the seniority of their fellow bargaining unit members in return for equal treatment on a combined list. Now we find out that the Encore pilots have decided that they (laid off WJ pilots) should be treated differently than themselves.

That might have consequences.

As was already mentioned, but I want to expand on it a little, the $625 covers the REIP. That part of the contract was not available to mainline pilots no matter what MOU would be passed. If you want a situation that is fair to all, then a mainline pilot would have to give up their right to accrue YOS while on a bump down to Encore. I am going to assume that is not something mainline pilots want to do. Ergo, an Encore pilot receives the benefit of the REIP payment where a mainline pilot continues to accrue YOS.

And no, Encore pilots did not decide mainline pilots should be treated differently.

Frankly I don’t believe the Encore MEC should have had the right to negotiate the terms of employment for those positions.

Agreed. In the down bid scenario with the combined list, both MEC's should have been involved. However, the reverse would also have to be true then, and that would require a combined MEC. I can only assume that the two are working together and that perhaps this is nothing more than act one? I am trying to be optimistic about such things.

[jjj]

The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ

We went from 150 spots to 292. 142 more open spots for mainline to bump into...

...at the ultimate cost of 737 jobs higher up the food chain. And at the cost of worse terms for those bumping down.

Here's what you don't understand Edelweiss - the Encore MEC does not operate in a silo. Your MEC affects the jobs of people senior to them that pushed for a one list. They got the rug pulled out from under them.

You want to save jobs? Stand by the expectations of the Pilot Transfer Agreement and the CAs of the bargaining groups under the WS group of companies.

Collectively hold the line against the company to handle lay-offs properly.

Dummies.

[Gear Jerker]

The MOA did not save 150 jobs.

The fleet plan moving forward at reduced capacity always included the Q.

Way to go.

JJJ

We went from 150 spots to 292. 142 more open spots for mainline to bump into...

...at the ultimate cost of 737 jobs higher up the food chain. And at the cost of worse terms for those bumping down.

Here's what you don't understand Edelweiss - the Encore MEC does not operate in a silo. Your MEC affects the jobs of people senior to them that pushed for a one list. They got the rug pulled out from under them.

You want to save jobs? Stand by the expectations of the Pilot Transfer Agreement and the CAs of the bargaining groups under the WS group of companies.

Collectively hold the line against the company to handle lay-offs properly.

Dummies.

Hi jjj,

First of all I hope you're holding up ok during these times.

Respectfully,

- How did any of the Encore MEC's actions cost 737 jobs? Keep in mind, the company created its fleet plans.

- What are the expectations of the Pilot Transfer Agreement and the CA that you are referring to? Keep in mind, the bumpdown clause from the PTA is being used. There is language in the CA directing the association to engage in layoff mitigation discussions. The Encore MEC received a very clear mandate from Encore pilots to prioritize preserving jobs at Encore in these negotiations - which they did. The survey occurred after MOA1. In MOA2, quite frankly they did as well as they could in achieving the mandate. So please, be specific, what expectations are you referring to that they should be standing by?

- Hold the line against the company: What exactly should the Encore MEC have done? Their job is to represent, and protect the interests of Encore pilots, as the WJ MEC's job is the interest of WJ pilots. Again, the WJ MEC still hadn't begun layoff mitigation discussions, even after the reduction bid had closed. The 700 May 1 layoff notices, and the 1000 June 1 layoff notices were sent out many days before the PSB closed. The Encore MEC successfully preserved an additional 25% of Encore pilot jobs, with additional protections - which Westjet pilots will soon occupy. Are you sure that your frustration is focused where it belongs?

Be well.

[jjj]

Stated again in another way.

If you don’t believe there is some cross pollination between the bargaining groups and some accountability then you are silly.

If you think the Encore MECs sole responsibility is to their bargaining unit then you are silly.

BEDE said it well above. The Encore MEC effectively repudiated the Transfer agreement.

I’m short on time to discuss this more specifically today.

For now you can ask the Encore MEC how many thanks they have received in the last few days from the WS MEC and LECs.

Cheers.

Best of luck to all to have some kind of half decent summer.

[flyinhigh]

Up to this point, the water has been so muddied from the beginning with the Union and Company relations at Westjet and quite frankly been the 100% opposite at Encore and it shows in the relationship between the two, the CBA and LOU's that have been negotiated and with how fast the Encore MEC can get things done.

As a former Encore pilot who worked with the Union and Company it is very frustrating and hard to look out for your current pilots interest while balancing the mainline brothers and sisters views. At the end of the day however, you have a mandate from your pilots and you must follow it. One comment was that they should not have been aloud to renegotiate items to save Westjet pilots when they bump down. Well if thats not a severe lack in duty of fair representation I don't know what is which than leads to a whole other slew of issues.

Personally knowing all the members of the Encore MEC, there is no way in hell they did this to sully any chance of bump down. They have done one thing, just like every other MEC (like ours at Transat) and did their best to save as many jobs as possible. In fact, it sounds like although the wage is lower they just saved over 100 Westjet pilot jobs for bump down. So its not full pay, well nobody is at full pay right now, just look at your #1 competitor in AC.

The Encore group has continually been able to negotiate better arrangements than the mainline counter part, be it from stronger CBA language or the REIP (Which I also personally know struck a huge cord at mainline as I fielded many calls from mainline pilots about how they felt thrown under the bus because they left Encore 9 months prior and where not eligible for it), but again the job of the MEC is to its current members.

Lastly, two of your mainline negotiators are quite possibly the greatest guys out there and to have. They will get things done, and in a good way to make this better for the mainline group. You just have to trust them... The biggest issue is that, from the beginning the cannon was pointed and didn't waiver at the companies head which sewered the relationship and trust. The guys in there now will be able to rebuild that trust and better your WAWCON in time.

As for now, the industry is shit. Just look around, instead of fighting every chance we get we ALL need to stick together and rebuild to what we used to have.

[George Taylor]

The cuts were deep. Did very many Encore guys get to stay? I hope this is short lived and we’re back to normal soon. Good luck everyone and stay safe.

[Gear Jerker]

The cuts were deep. Did very many Encore guys get to stay? I hope this is short lived and we’re back to normal soon. Good luck everyone and stay safe.

There were a few. Over 90% of Encore is laid off. If WJ MEC does any mitigation, there may be a few more.

Good luck everyone.

[CaptainHaddock]

.

[LennyLeonard]

Company will go force majeure and not allow all of that retraining. Things will get interesting...

[DirtyDashDriver]

Maybe.

Or, maybe they spread the training cost over the number of months it would take Encore to realistically train 250-or-so pilots. Given social distancing rules, you'd not be able to train a class of 20. 6 to 10 at the most. So you're looking somewhere around two years to train everyone. Very, very rough math says it would cost around $3.5 million per year to train those pilots, and I figure a rougher estimate of the current training budget at Encore and mainline can't be any less $20 million. So the retraining costs appear to be a steal.

You're going to have to ask what the company thinks the fleet will look like in two years. If the fleet size today is around that number, then yes they will retrain because that's cheaper than constantly fighting with the two unions.

So it's probably better to decide which burgers are more interesting to flip at this point? - McDonald's, A&W, Burger King?