Coronavirus Numbers

[complexintentions]

I think the public won’t put up staying home for much longer. It goes against your civil rights to tell you how many people can gather within your own home.
The prolonged affect of isolation will cause more damage than being infected. We live on an economic planet.
The economy needs to keep moving forward to prevent more severe consequences.

Captain Kirk

Well this is good opportunity for you (and others) to learn something about our Economy.

Start by typing "Money as Debt" into a search engine and watch the video.

If you want more information "Fractional Reserve Banking" will also bring up some very interesting articles.

Then do some research into "Derivatives" - and find out that there is a Quadrillion Dollars (I had to look it up - a 1 with 15 zeroes) of unfunded liabilities out there (about 15 times Global GDP).

Then type in "Bank of Canada" and learn how it's not the Government but a private banking cartel that controls the money in Canada.

Do some research on the Rothschilds.

It's possible the Corona Virus is the trigger that will collapse the entire Financial System (just a bit earlier than what would have happened anyway imho).

The apocalyptic fear-mongering and breathless conspiratorial hints of your comments is beneath you. You're playing to the Zerohedge crowd. I understand the seductive appeal of such theories reducing complicated things into simple binary solutions, it's the foundation of pretty much all social media and resulting polarization of politics and society. But I didn't really expect it from an airline pilot, a profession I perhaps incorrectly, tend to hold to a higher standard of critical thought.

If you want a fascinating series about money try "The Ascent of Money" by Niall Ferguson - the BBC doc, not the book. It'll give you some context on the ever-popular mythology surrounding the Rothschilds. It's no secret there are ultra-rich families and conglomerates that exert disproportionate influence around the globe. Canada itself is basically a country founded by robber barons whose descendants and successors continue to run it today. And...? Human nature is not a conspiracy.

The BoC is separate from the "Government" as a Crown corporation by intent, as an attempt to reduce political meddling in economic policy. Same as the US Federal Reserve. The central banks set economic policy, the politicians set fiscal policy. How effective that separation is, you can decide for yourself. It certainly helps to have strong leadership, I happen to think the last truly brilliant governor was David Dodge.

If you're going to predict a possible "collapse of the entire Financial System", you're going to have to define what you mean by that term. It's generic to the point of being meaningless. We were far closer to a collapse in 2008 with a near-total seizure of liquidity. THAT was a "Financial System" crisis. The coronavirus is a medical/health crisis, which is a crucial difference. Of course it is having massive economic consequences, idling much of the world's economy. It's certainly highlighted the weaknesses of globalization with regards to supply chains (particular the folly of relying heavily on a totalitarian regime for many vital supplies), but that same coordination of global central banks is ironically probably the best defence against said "collapse".

I'm not downplaying the economic seriousness of coronavirus. But an outlook that only predicts failure is not balanced.

[Red1]

lets move away from the fear, and make fact based decisions.

One of every five New York City residents tested positive for antibodies to the coronavirus, according to preliminary results described by Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo on Thursday that suggested that the virus had spread far more widely than known.

If the pattern holds, the results from random testing of 3,000 people raised the tantalizing prospect that many New Yorkers — as many as 2.7 million, the governor said — who never knew they had been infected had already encountered the virus, and survived.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyre ... 3ec6b55435

[ayseven]

Eric is right. There is a lot of misunderstanding about debt. Government debt is not personal debt. There should be a minimum income. Even the Conservatives used to think that was a good idea. People will go on buying things, and doing mundane things like eating. These are not theories. Trickle down BS is a theory.

[mbav8r]

lets move away from the fear, and make fact based decisions.

One of every five New York City residents tested positive for antibodies to the coronavirus, according to preliminary results described by Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo on Thursday that suggested that the virus had spread far more widely than known.

If the pattern holds, the results from random testing of 3,000 people raised the tantalizing prospect that many New Yorkers — as many as 2.7 million, the governor said — who never knew they had been infected had already encountered the virus, and survived.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyre ... 3ec6b55435

So, what are you getting at, presenting a fact without opinion is meaningless! Are you advocating for antibody test or reopening the economy?

[florch]

lets move away from the fear, and make fact based decisions.

One of every five New York City residents tested positive for antibodies to the coronavirus, according to preliminary results described by Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo on Thursday that suggested that the virus had spread far more widely than known.

If the pattern holds, the results from random testing of 3,000 people raised the tantalizing prospect that many New Yorkers — as many as 2.7 million, the governor said — who never knew they had been infected had already encountered the virus, and survived.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/nyre ... 3ec6b55435

Paywall on the NYT article, but this is the great hope I've had for a while. The denominator question. We know about the positive tests, which reveals only limited and biased testing on suspected positives or exposed people (no one's fault except that we don't have sufficient testing to test the general public at random) and the ICU trips and deaths (the numerators in the equation). The higher the denominator the better - it will mean the disease is less deadly than we feared and herd immunity is closer. This has been suspected in other places as well.

When the Institutional Narrative shifts in this direction, then we are getting closer to going back to work.

[Rockie]

So the DHS delivered some radical scientific breakthroughs at yesterday’s briefing that disinfectants and isopropyl alcohol are helpful in killing the virus. Who’d have thunk?

And then the President of the United States took that revolutionary new knowledge to the next perfectly logical step.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... s-n1191246

This would be funny except for the office this mentally defective imbecile holds and the fact 40% of Americans still worship him and always will.

America is doomed.

[florch]

So, what are you getting at, presenting a fact without opinion is meaningless! Are you advocating for antibody test or reopening the economy?

Not speaking for anyone else, I think antibody testing is the key to reopening the economy. Falling numbers tell one story but not much about having another spike later. Antibody testing is key.

[mbav8r]

So, what are you getting at, presenting a fact without opinion is meaningless! Are you advocating for antibody test or reopening the economy?

Not speaking for anyone else, I think antibody testing is the key to reopening the economy. Falling numbers tell one story but not much about having another spike later. Antibody testing is key.

I agree, however they still don’t know how long the antibodies will be in your system, there is still a long way to go with this testing and what it means.
It is more likely we will need the vaccine before a full reopening.

[Old fella]

So the DHS delivered some radical scientific breakthroughs at yesterday’s briefing that disinfectants and isopropyl alcohol are helpful in killing the virus. Who’d have thunk?

And then the President of the United States took that revolutionary new knowledge to the next perfectly logical step.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... s-n1191246

This would be funny except for the office this mentally defective imbecile holds and the fact 40% of Americans still worship him and always will.

America is doomed.

I agree. Matter of fact, I bet this defective imbecile will get the keys again in November because like here that 40% are dedicated and do vote. I hope we as a country are able to escape some of the upcoming shit show without getting splattered to much. I’ve been around a number of years and as I see it the USA started a steady downward slip after they withdrew from Vietnam entirely in 1975. Their invincibility was certainly questioned and some may say shattered from that point 1970-75. From then on fill in the blanks

[genetic jack hammer]

I'm thinking that ALL 40% of his cheerleading squad should be the first to try this method. He wouldn't lie to them.

[rxl]

So the DHS delivered some radical scientific breakthroughs at yesterday’s briefing that disinfectants and isopropyl alcohol are helpful in killing the virus. Who’d have thunk?

And then the President of the United States took that revolutionary new knowledge to the next perfectly logical step.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald ... s-n1191246

This would be funny except for the office this mentally defective imbecile holds and the fact 40% of Americans still worship him and always will.

America is doomed.

What blows me away is that NO ONE at that one ring circus yesterday called him out on this.
Why didn’t someone grows some balls and tell this idiot, the criminal in chief, to SHUT THE F UP before for one of the 40%er’s try this at home??
Land of the brave ... right.

[genetic jack hammer]

His hardcore 40% cheerleaders believe he's the second coming of the messiah. Let them try it first. Let them also all join in mass gatherings. Why would their messiah lie to them?

[rxl]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... rus-trump/

The world needs an anti-trump vaccine as much if not more than an anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccine.
He has the potential to cause far more harm than any pandemic.

[2R]

https://www.change.org/p/united-nations ... or-general

Anyone here signed the petition ?
It is very interesting that none of the noise on this site is directed at those responsible for the outbreak , and very little constructive critique's of what is to be done
Just more Marxist support for the Maoists .
Not one post critical of the system or President who jailed Doctors and whistle blowers when this Pandemic could have been prevented .
Instead the Marxists are all lining up their hyperbolic hate of America , when they give a free ride to the menace that shut flights from Wuhan to Beijing ,but allowed 14000 people a day to fly to North America carrying with them the Pandemic

[TG]

https://www.change.org/p/united-nations ... or-general

Anyone here signed the petition ?
It is very interesting that none of the noise on this site is directed at those responsible for the outbreak , and very little constructive critique's of what is to be done
Just more Marxist support for the Maoists .
Not one post critical of the system or President who jailed Doctors and whistle blowers when this Pandemic could have been prevented .
Instead the Marxists are all lining up their hyperbolic hate of America , when they give a free ride to the menace that shut flights from Wuhan to Beijing ,but allowed 14000 people a day to fly to North America carrying with them the Pandemic

W.H.O.
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Don't forget that the Chines blocked them from visiting Wuhan at the beginning of the outbreak. The WHO director general, the one you want out, had to fly to Beijing at the end of January to negotiate entry and information sharing. It then took almost a month for a WHO team to be allowed to visit Wuhan. And guess what, Tedros "flattery" of the Chinese was the price of entry!
That was the rock.

The hard place is Trump suspending their fundings, trying to cover his own shortcomings...



So, much hypocrisy left and right...

[Rockie]

Anyone here signed the petition ?
It is very interesting that none of the noise on this site is directed at those responsible for the outbreak , and very little constructive critique's of what is to be done
Just more Marxist support for the Maoists .
Not one post critical of the system or President who jailed Doctors and whistle blowers when this Pandemic could have been prevented .
Instead the Marxists are all lining up their hyperbolic hate of America , when they give a free ride to the menace that shut flights from Wuhan to Beijing ,but allowed 14000 people a day to fly to North America carrying with them the Pandemic

China will be featured in the autopsy of this travesty but right now there are much more immediate concerns. Such as the President of the United States suggesting yesterday that Covid positive patients sit under an ultraviolet light and be injected with disinfectants.

Enough with the "marxist" too, it's just silly.

[YYZSaabGuy]

It is very interesting that none of the noise on this site is directed at those responsible for the outbreak , and very little constructive critique's of what is to be done
Just more Marxist support for the Maoists .
Not one post critical of the system or President who jailed Doctors and whistle blowers when this Pandemic could have been prevented .
Instead the Marxists are all lining up their hyperbolic hate of America , when they give a free ride to the menace that shut flights from Wuhan to Beijing ,but allowed 14000 people a day to fly to North America carrying with them the Pandemic

FFS get a grip, people. There is lots of blame to go around for this fiasco, from the Chinese government (previously referred to on here as "Chicoms" by some wit caught up in some kind of 1950s time warp), which lied about early reports of the Wuhan outbreak because they saw it as a risk to their international image, to multiple western governments which insisted the pandemic was low-risk and could be managed without a robust containment regime, to the Trump administration, which closed the White House office responsible for pandemics, cut funding for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, failed to recognize the need for testing kits, masks and PPE, initially relied on a policy of denial and has since focused on trying to manage the entire mess through the lens of a November election. (Ultraviolet light, anti-malarial medications and bleach injections my ass - I can't wait to see what that tangerine-coloured ballbag is going to come up with next).

We have seen a global failure in leadership, including around basic acknowledgement that pandemics were even a risk worth preparing for (despite BSE, SARS, swine flu, MERS, Ebola...). As a result, we now have more than 2.8 million confirmed infections, more than 195,000 dead, and a global economy that is locked down. We aren't even close to seeing the end of this. And as the pressure grows from various gun-toting, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, Fox-news watching, anti-science deplorables to end containment and open things back up, there is justifiable concern about both the prospect of a second wave and the security of our food supply (I'm starting to see empty shelves again in my local supermarket). I'm pretty sure we will find that we are no better prepared for the second wave, if it comes, than we were for the first.

[complexintentions]

W.H.O.
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Don't forget that the Chines blocked them from visiting Wuhan at the beginning of the outbreak. The WHO director general, the one you want out, had to fly to Beijing at the end of January to negotiate entry and information sharing. It then took almost a month for a WHO team to be allowed to visit Wuhan. And guess what, Tedros "flattery" of the Chinese was the price of entry!
That was the rock.

The hard place is Trump suspending their fundings, trying to cover his own shortcomings...



So, much hypocrisy left and right...

This account doesn't quite add up. Taiwanese officials were alarmed immediately in early January when they began hearing reports of a communicable respiratory disease in China. They didn't trust the Chinese reports and sent their own medical team to Wuhan and quickly realized the virus was spreading human-to-human. Returned to Taiwan and began immediate quarantine protocols, masks, stopped flights to China.

Meanwhile blocked from contributing their expertise and knowledge to the world by being prevented from membership in the WHO by China. Aided and abetted by the weak and cowardly countries that bow to China, including Canada.That alone should invoke censure of China for the lives it has cost.

But I fail to understand how if a Taiwanese medical team could visit Wuhan, a WHO team found it so difficult. The very WHO that Taiwan was disallowed membership in.

This is how you handle a pandemic. Not hiding like PM Cuckoo Clock Trudeau, or musing about injecting bleach like Trump. North American "leaders" look like the idiots they are. And the Europeans are just as bad, with the possible exceptions of Germany and the Czech Republic.

Taiwan's coronavirus response is among the best globally

[RippleRock]

You have to check this out and tell me they are wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/xfLVxx_lB ... 0MvfMKdOn8

That's science and statistics vs. theory and fear mongering.

[Fanblade]

You have to check this out and tell me they are wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/xfLVxx_lB ... 0MvfMKdOn8

That's science and statistics vs. theory and fear mongering.

Interesting video by MD’s specializing in immunology. Essentially they are saying that because this virus was an unknown, playing it ultra safe based on what computer models were projecting was the right call. But only initially. Now that we have hard data on the virus, the computer modelling appears way over blown. In fact the current data points to the equivalent of a very bad flu season. Certain hotspots very very bad but not worse than what can happen in a bad flu season.

So the conclusion they have drawn is that we way over reacted to this event. We probably should have just held the line at mass gatherings instead. Isolate only those at high risk.

It will be interesting to see if we get further traction from the medical community in this direction. A peer review of sorts would add tremendous weight.

[Rockie]

As Dr. Erickson states at the outset his perspective is not only as a physician but entrepreneurial, since he and the other fellow own that clinic. They are rather obviously out of step with public health and viral pandemic expertise around the world. But as the world will for sure open up when it's safe to do so and in a controlled manner to keep it safe, this seems more a question of timing with these guys too far ahead.

What I don't understand is this idea that governments want to keep the shelter in place any longer than absolutely necessary. To what possible end?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... sacramento

[Fanblade]

As Dr. Erickson states at the outset his perspective is not only as a physician but entrepreneurial, since he and the other fellow own that clinic. They are rather obviously out of step with public health and viral pandemic expertise around the world. But as the world will for sure open up when it's safe to do so and in a controlled manner to keep it safe, this seems more a question of timing with these guys too far ahead.

What I don't understand is this idea that governments want to keep the shelter in place any longer than absolutely necessary. To what possible end?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... sacramento

They have some very valid points. What would have happened if we had taken all of our resources and focused only on those at high risk? Is it the high risk mostly overwhelming the medical system?

Those not at risk carry on with working. Mass gatherings cancelled. Olympics, NFL, NHL, Stampede etc.

The thing to remember this is only the first wave. What are we planning for winter 2020-2021?

Using real data rather than models. Can we deal with this better? Always revisiting your assumptions based on new data is what science is about.

Again it will be interesting to see how other medical professionals begin to view our reaction to the pandemic after we begin to analyze real data, versus the theory (computer models) we have been using up to now.

It’s not like government hasn’t been very transparent about their computer models. They have. They know and admit they can be wildly inaccurate. Using them heading into pandemic is one thing. Continuing to use them after we have real data is another.

I think this is a valid question these doctors are bringing forward. What I would like to see is how other doctors respond.

[Rockie]

The biggest factor here is anyone could be infecting people around them for two weeks before they even suspect they have the virus. Protecting the most vulnerable at this stage is not nearly enough, and even after the world opens up again they will still need to be quarantined until there is a vaccine. The medical resources also need a rest and the ability to handle not just the current covid case load but the ones sure to develop when we open up. AND, they need to have the excess resources to resume the totally neglected case load that existed before covid 19 existed.

Low infection rate.
Extensive testing capability ahead of opening up.
Extensive and immediate contact tracing of all positive cases.

The faster we achieve those the faster we open up, so focus.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-19 ... -1.5543530

[Fanblade]

The medical resources also need a rest and the ability to handle not just the current case load but the ones sure to develop when we open up. AND, they need to have the excess resources to resume the totally neglected case load that existed

You just outed the fact you didn’t watch the video.

The whole point is to step back and question based on data. If medical professionals come to the same conclusions then fine. But to not re-analyze at all is simple ignorance. Something I do not believe our medical professionals are of course.

So since you didn’t bother watching but decided to all knowingly comment anyway. I will paraphrase for you.

- Some parts of the US that went into lockdown prior to becoming a hotspot have lay-off’s for nurses and doctors. Whole floors of hospitals closed. Yes normal medical procedures getting backlogged. Some people dying out of fear of the hospital or delayed procedures.

- We have never created a vaccine for a corona virus. If we do it now it will be a first. Attempts to date for corona virus vaccines have had very bad immune reactions. Corona virus’s also mutate quickly so it’s effectiveness may be very short. It is a real possibility that there may never be a vaccine.

- Covid statistically is not more virulent than the flu. Getting sick is good for your immune system. So long as it doesn’t kill you of course.

- Covid does however spread much quicker than the flu making it more difficult to manage in a way that does not overwhelm hospitals when a hotspot occurs.

- Data shows the mortality rate between lockdown or no lockdown to be statistically insignificant.

- If there is never a vaccine how do we manage the virus through the community? Because one way or another that will happen.

- So called super spreaders who are without symptoms spread an even lower virulent form of the virus. For healthy people this is a good version to catch. Yes not good in a seniors home.

- If there is never a vaccine, are we managing the Virus through the community in the safest and most efficient manner?

-The second wave will be this fall so tough questions need to be asked.

You may not think the questions these doctors are asking are worth your time. That’s fine because your opinion isn’t of importance. If I want to know how to start a jet engine your opinion would be valid. What I’m interested in is the opinion of other medical professionals who specialize in the field.

I myself have no opinion on the questions being asked by these Doctors. We have to leave this to the professionals. The questioning must also come from the professionals. It’s a form of peer review.

Yes I am very curious as to how other immunologists respond to data.

[Rockie]

I watched enough of the video, and none of the opinions I share are mine although I agree with them. I'm not an expert. You, (and the Dr's in the video) are making assumptions that aren't backed up by fact. Saying data doesn't back up isolation as an effective strategy against infection is a conclusion the world hasn't come to yet, or we wouldn't still be isolating would we?

The measures in place are re-evaluated all day, every day, by every jurisdiction. When conditions and existing data support easing restrictions in any particular place they will be lifted. Nothing you, me, or two doctors from California say is going to change that. Nor should it. And in case it's escaped you we are starting to ease up a little but very cautiously as is prudent.

Really Fanblade, do you think governments are keeping the economy closed because they like it?