RCAF Cyclone Down

[Gannet167]

It's not uncommon to take additional non crew members for a ride. There's nothing unusual about it.

[7ECA]

Latest report from the CBC, the Cyclone was 2 miles from landing on the Fredricton - meaning there were numerous witnesses to the crash.

Difficulty in finding the wreckage is being attributed to the fact that the Med. is around 3,000 metres deep in the area - nearly 10,000 feet.

[Jean-Pierre]

The civilian Cougar Air crash in Hibernia Oilfield with the same type of aircraft the Captain had 6000 hour and the FO 3000 hour.

[7ECA]

With the latest release (the CBC article saying the helo was on approach, numerous witnesses on the ship), what other possible causes could there be for the rapid descent/crash other than a MGB failure/loss of oil pressure?

[AuxBatOn]

The civilian Cougar Air crash in Hibernia Oilfield with the same type of aircraft the Captain had 6000 hour and the FO 3000 hour.

The S-92A and the Cyclone are not the same type. The are from the same lineage but the flight controls, amongst other things, are very different. Also, the MGB has been re-designed since the 2009 accident.

[Dry Guy]

I sometimes wonder if military pilots realize how inexperienced they really are. Does it worry them that they are sent out on such dangerous missions without much seat time? Or does the military pump them up enough that they don't think it's an issue?

[AuxBatOn]

I sometimes wonder if military pilots realize how inexperienced they really are. Does it worry them that they are sent out on such dangerous missions without much seat time? Or does the military pump them up enough that they don't think it's an issue?

How do you define experience?

[goingnowherefast]

Military pilots have significantly higher quantity and quality of training compared to civilian pilots. It's also training to the military mission and that aircraft type. A civilian Commercial Multi-IFR is pretty non-specific training and only 250hrs. Do 5 hours of additional training in a King Air, a ride, then at 257hrs, your cut loose as a FO on a high performance turbine twin. I bet a C-130 "PPC" is more than 8 sim sessions, then first day on the line is a tactical mission in Afghanistan to get shot at. Probably isn't night SAR in crap weather either.

Yes, the hours in a military logbook are low, but most of those hours are training for the specific missions.

Another way to put it would be civies train very little with lots of operational flying. Military does lots of training, and little operational flying.

[kevenv]

I sometimes wonder if military pilots realize how inexperienced they really are. Does it worry them that they are sent out on such dangerous missions without much seat time? Or does the military pump them up enough that they don't think it's an issue?

How do you define experience?

Perhaps the military should force all pilots to work the ramp for 2 years at poverty wages so they can become real pilots.

[AirFrame]

The question nobody seems to be asking:- Why were there 2 sailors on board?

Not sure why this seems odd... They were flying off a Navy ship.

[BMLtech]

Appears to be a sudden and catastrophic event. They will need to recover the wreckage for sure. As we know the Sikorsky gearbox has been implicated in previous accidents.
https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... 9A0016.pdf

[Daniel Cooper]

If Canada was smart they'd save their money and get the Americans to perform the recovery for them. They are planning to use this type for the next Presidential helicopter so I'm sure they are dying to know why it went down.

[goldeneagle]

Perhaps the military should force all pilots to work the ramp for 2 years at poverty wages so they can become real pilots.

Plenty of folks did a year or two of OJT after basic training before they saw the inside of an airplane. I know everybody in my cadre did. That was 40 years ago, maybe things have changed, I've been out of touch with that group for a long time.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Perhaps the military should force all pilots to work the ramp for 2 years at poverty wages so they can become real pilots.

Plenty of folks did a year or two of OJT after basic training before they saw the inside of an airplane. I know everybody in my cadre did. That was 40 years ago, maybe things have changed, I've been out of touch with that group for a long time.

Yup, most newbies will do a stint as the SLJO ( Shitty Little Jobs Officer). Some of the "work" assigned would make being a rampie rather appealing as apposed to say updating paper copies of QR&O's, been there done that

[kevenv]

Perhaps the military should force all pilots to work the ramp for 2 years at poverty wages so they can become real pilots.

Plenty of folks did a year or two of OJT after basic training before they saw the inside of an airplane. I know everybody in my cadre did. That was 40 years ago, maybe things have changed, I've been out of touch with that group for a long time.

Yup, most newbies will do a stint as the SLJO ( Shitty Little Jobs Officer). Some of the "work" assigned would make being a rampie rather appealing as apposed to say updating paper copies of QR&O's, been there done that

I guess the sarcasm was lost in my post. The difference between being forced to work a ramp job to prove yourself before you can start applying the $50000 or so worth of training you paid for and awaiting a course in the military are two entirely different things. The ramp is often portrayed on here as a rite of passage, as a way of proving you have what it takes. I guess it was lost in my post that I disagree with the post about the quality of military pilots. Apologies.

[goldeneagle]

Yup, most newbies will do a stint as the SLJO ( Shitty Little Jobs Officer). Some of the "work" assigned would make being a rampie rather appealing as apposed to say updating paper copies of QR&O's, been there done that

HAHA. I was handed a copy of the QR&O's, photocopier and an unlimited supply of paper and empty binders. Was told 'we need 40 copies'. Single sided copier so got really good at refeeding the paper to put the second side on.

[Heliian]

Do they use a tethered buoy?

Would it be possible for one to hit the tail rotor?

[AuxBatOn]

When I was waiting pilot training, I manned the Ops Desk (dispatch) and flew regularly (about once a week) and got to travel everywhere in North America. All that being paid ~50K a year. Beats any ramp jobs.

[Outlaw58]

I sometimes wonder if military pilots realize how inexperienced they really are. Does it worry them that they are sent out on such dangerous missions without much seat time? Or does the military pump them up enough that they don't think it's an issue?

How do you define experience?

Experience is something you acquire a fraction of a second after needing it.

58

[L39Guy]

I sometimes wonder if military pilots realize how inexperienced they really are. Does it worry them that they are sent out on such dangerous missions without much seat time? Or does the military pump them up enough that they don't think it's an issue?

Pray tell, what has the accident rate in the military been for the past 20 years? One or maybe two Snowbird accidents - always dangerous work - I can't think of any SAR aircraft or helicopters, a Hornet or two - again, dangerous work - no transport accidents, a few training accidents, etc. Considering the low number of accident given the flying rate, "experience" level and the dangerous nature of the flying, I would have to say that it is pretty damn safe.

Everyone is inexperienced at the beginning. The issue is how do you manage it until enough experience is gained either through training or scaring oneself. A pilot with a fresh set of wings doesn't fly operationally immediately; if they are lucky they are off to an Operational Training Unit immediately and will spend months learning a new aircraft then years flying under supervision either as an FO in multicrew aircraft or as a wingman in single seat operations.

The system works well in managing the risk and that is demonstrated by the safety record.

[Jean-Pierre]

Luckily there is some overlap between civilian and military so we can compare apple to apple. Like would you rather get in the back of a twin otter and go to the north pole with a 20000 hour Kenn Borek captain or an RCAF twin otter pilot with "excellent training"?

[co-joe]

How much do orders play into PDM in the military. Does "I order you to do this mission", take precedence over "I don't feel safe doing this mission under these conditions"? Or is that the end of it, and you fire up the bird and take your chances?

[SAR_YQQ]

How much do orders play into PDM in the military. Does "I order you to do this mission", take precedence over "I don't feel safe doing this mission under these conditions"?

Ultimately the AC makes the final call to fly or not. We utilize a MALA (Mission Acceptance Launch Authority) matrix to determine risk and if risk is too high for the AC to self-authorize, he/she must seek higher authority. I’ve routinely had SAR pilots call me at night asking for authority to launch due to variable X.

[TT1900]

Luckily there is some overlap between civilian and military so we can compare apple to apple. Like would you rather get in the back of a twin otter and go to the north pole with a 20000 hour Kenn Borek captain or an RCAF twin otter pilot with "excellent training"?

No disrespect, but are you sure that’s a question you want to ask after 2013?

FWIW, I wouldn’t hesitate to ride with 440 Sqn or Borek. Now, can you show some respect and stop with the military/non-military pilot nonsense?

[tsgarp]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cyclon ... -1.5555308

The question nobody seems to be asking:- Why were there 2 sailors on board?

The two naval officers on board were MARS I believe. Part of their job on board the ship would have been directing the helo during operations, (i.e. they would be the ones on the ship telling the aircraft where to go and look for an enemy submarine, etc...). I don’t know the exact details of MARS officer training, but training programs for similar jobs usually include familiarization with how related trades work, (i.e. pilots visit the terminal control facility and tower during training). The idea is to give the trainees a more concrete understanding of the bigger picture. These officers were on board the helo so that they could get a better understanding of one of the inner workings of one of the key assets they control.